Re-Amp Built Into an Amp

Gallery

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
7,692
Let me preface this with the fact that I know very little about amp circuits, but...


With the success of the power station, it makes me wonder why no one has built an amp with 2 power sections yet.

For traditional NMV circuits (ie tweeds, plexi, blackface, etc...) we have
  • Attenuator load boxes that we put between the amp and speaker
  • Re-amp boxes with a second power amp that goes between the amp and speaker
  • Devices that control magnet strength that go between the amp and speaker
  • We have power scaling that controls the wattage(?)

To me the monkey in the room is why not two power sections? Why not build a tweed deluxe or a plexi with a second power section so you can crank the amp and get the desired break up from the first power section and control the volume from the second?

Is this possible. Is it a dumb question? Too expensive? Not feasible?
 

Dave_C

Member
Messages
14,096
As others have mentioned, the Guytron GT-100 did the dummy load and re-amp thing in one box back in the mid-90s. I had an original version and gigged it for a few years through the late 90s and into the early 2000s. Great amp but that original version was a little bit soft in the B channel. Guy came out with other revisions that allowed the user to select different characteristics for the EL84 "preamp".

Looks like they're still in business!

http://www.guytron.com

The cool thing about the Power Station though is that you can turn ANY amp into a "Guytron".
 
Last edited:

Jimmys15

Member
Messages
147
Guy Hendricks pioneered "re-amping" long before it was a term. My GT100 is very versatile, I can dial it to sound identical to my friends SLO100 (semi clean) and his drri, I can also dial it to sound just like my DSL50 green channel, the GT100 always sounds bit more hifi and can do it all at low volume.
But it doesn't feel like those other amps, and I don't like the hi gain channel, but it gets better as the MV gets turned up.
However, I can put almost any pedal with a level control in the f/x loop of my DSL50, and play it at TV volume and it sounds great! My Timmy seems to work the best, but the OCD and Dyna comp work good too, just adjust the level out. No need for an expensive Fryette or attenuator.
 

Dave_C

Member
Messages
14,096
Guy Hendricks pioneered "re-amping" long before it was a term. My GT100 is very versatile, I can dial it to sound identical to my friends SLO100 (semi clean) and his drri, I can also dial it to sound just like my DSL50 green channel, the GT100 always sounds bit more hifi and can do it all at low volume.
FYI, it's "Hedrick", not "Hendricks"

But it doesn't feel like those other amps, and I don't like the hi gain channel, but it gets better as the MV gets turned up.
However, I can put almost any pedal with a level control in the f/x loop of my DSL50, and play it at TV volume and it sounds great! My Timmy seems to work the best, but the OCD and Dyna comp work good too, just adjust the level out. No need for an expensive Fryette or attenuator.
Why not? The Fryette PS does more - on more amps - than what you just described above.
 

Gallery

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
7,692
However, I can put almost any pedal with a level control in the f/x loop of my DSL50, and play it at TV volume and it sounds great! My Timmy seems to work the best, but the OCD and Dyna comp work good too, just adjust the level out. No need for an expensive Fryette or attenuator.
No pedal will ever get the tone of an overdriven power section.
 

DrainBamage

Member
Messages
2,395
Probably weight, extra heat in the same unit and the cost of the product would be the cons that would out weigh having separate units.
 

cochese

Member
Messages
2,170
It's not reamping it's slaving. Reamping is a recording technique. http://www.radialeng.com/jcr.php Slaving has been around for years where you take the line out of one amplifier and send it to another.http://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/tips-and-tricks/obey-your-master-the-art-of-amp-slaving Doing so with a load allows you to have infinite volume control.

As a Guytron user for many years it was that amp's topology that got me interested in slaving with my Hot Plate, using the Ultimate Attenuator, Bad Cat Unleash and now the Power Station. The Power Station to me is the best load/slaving system in one box. The Guytron was designed as a system and works in a similar manner. The advantage to the PS is that you can use it with any amp. The Guytron is fantastic but you have to like the tones it produces. I have the FV version which is the most flexible. I still use the Guytron but the PS has allowed me to use my other amp's in a similar manner without the constraints of deafening volume to obtain the sounds I want.

Bad Cat has an amp that does this but with a digital secondary amp vs tube. Having tried all these different implementations I think using a tube amp as the final amplification stage works the best. The downside is weight, cost and maintenance. I think there are numerous reasons this hasn't caught on and there is also the Guytron patent to consider as well.
 

djd100

Member
Messages
3,113
Not true, as any pedal with quality tube power amp models can. Try a Two Notes Torpedo CAB or Atomic Amplifire in your amp's FX Loop.

I use the Torpedo CAB with various tube preamps (Marshall Super Lead, HiWatt DR-103, Orange OR-120, Matchless Chieftain, Dumble ODS, Fender BF Deluxe, Vox AC30TB), works well.

No pedal will ever get the tone of an overdriven power section.
 

Gallery

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
7,692
Not true, as any pedal with quality tube power amp models can. Try a Two Notes Torpedo CAB or Atomic Amplifire in your amp's FX Loop.

I use the Torpedo CAB with various tube preamps (Marshall Super Lead, HiWatt DR-103, Orange OR-120, Matchless Chieftain, Dumble ODS, Fender BF Deluxe, Vox AC30TB), works well.
Sorry I disagree. I have a torpedo CAB. It's excellent for modeling speaker cabinets. The power section modeling is great for adding color to your dirt pedals and preamps, but not for authentic power tube break up.

I've not yet found a pedal solution that will sound the same as the overdrive of a power section in amp that relies heavily on power tube clipping to get it's sound (ie JTM45, Tweed Deluxe, etc...). Some get close, but always sound more compressed without the same feel. Your ears may not agree.
 

aatop

Member
Messages
4
Let me preface this with the fact that I know very little about amp circuits, but...


With the success of the power station, it makes me wonder why no one has built an amp with 2 power sections yet.

For traditional NMV circuits (ie tweeds, plexi, blackface, etc...) we have
  • Attenuator load boxes that we put between the amp and speaker
  • Re-amp boxes with a second power amp that goes between the amp and speaker
  • Devices that control magnet strength that go between the amp and speaker
  • We have power scaling that controls the wattage(?)

To me the monkey in the room is why not two power sections? Why not build a tweed deluxe or a plexi with a second power section so you can crank the amp and get the desired break up from the first power section and control the volume from the second?

Is this possible. Is it a dumb question? Too expensive? Not feasible?
This concept has been around for a long time...a serial loop with a return level control accomplishes your goal, the final output transformer is being used for attenuation, so that all the goodness from both the pre section and complete main power section are preserved, just the final output levels are affected. Best MV/attenuator available, to my ears. Any good tube amp tech can get you set up this way if your older heads don't have a loop, or have one, but without a return level control. See if you can find someone with an amp set up this way and check it out. Something to consider!
 

Dave_C

Member
Messages
14,096
It's not reamping it's slaving. Reamping is a recording technique. http://www.radialeng.com/jcr.php Slaving has been around for years where you take the line out of one amplifier and send it to another.http://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/tips-and-tricks/obey-your-master-the-art-of-amp-slaving Doing so with a load allows you to have infinite volume control.

As a Guytron user for many years it was that amp's topology that got me interested in slaving with my Hot Plate, using the Ultimate Attenuator, Bad Cat Unleash and now the Power Station. The Power Station to me is the best load/slaving system in one box. The Guytron was designed as a system and works in a similar manner. The advantage to the PS is that you can use it with any amp. The Guytron is fantastic but you have to like the tones it produces. I have the FV version which is the most flexible. I still use the Guytron but the PS has allowed me to use my other amp's in a similar manner without the constraints of deafening volume to obtain the sounds I want.

Bad Cat has an amp that does this but with a digital secondary amp vs tube. Having tried all these different implementations I think using a tube amp as the final amplification stage works the best.
Me too.

The downside is weight, cost and maintenance. I think there are numerous reasons this hasn't caught on and there is also the Guytron patent to consider as well.
I think the patent is the big one but also the fact that once you've purchased a Guytron, you can't move the re-amper/slaver/whatever to any other amp you own. That's why I'd take a PS any day over any amp with all of it built-in.
 

Dave_C

Member
Messages
14,096
Sorry I disagree. I have a torpedo CAB. It's excellent for modeling speaker cabinets. The power section modeling is great for adding color to your dirt pedals and preamps, but not for authentic power tube break up.

I've not yet found a pedal solution that will sound the same as the overdrive of a power section in amp that relies heavily on power tube clipping to get it's sound (ie JTM45, Tweed Deluxe, etc...). Some get close, but always sound more compressed without the same feel. Your ears may not agree.
I prefer the time-honored "hybrid" approach where you get BOTH, a la Jimi, Stevie, et al.
 

Gallery

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
7,692
My issue with the power station is that it's an awkward size and shape. It's not going to play well with combos that have the controls on top and it's deeper than lunch box heads. The bad cat has a much better footprint and shape, but it's not tube. Plus I hate carrying more than just an amp and guitar.
 

cochese

Member
Messages
2,170
Me too.



I think the patent is the big one but also the fact that once you've purchased a Guytron, you can't move the re-amper/slaver/whatever to any other amp you own. That's why I'd take a PS any day over any amp with all of it built-in.
I have used the GT100's power section for slaving with other amps. No you can't use the load in the amp obviously but it does work really well for slaving as you have 100 watts, big iron and a tube buffered tone controls. You just need to use a load. I've used the Hot Plate, the Unleash's load as well as the Power Station's load. It all works. The PS is more transparent though right off the bat. One advantage I found with the Guytron is that because the main output section is 100 watts and uses really large transformers there is more low end girth. The final output section will play a factor. Fryette could make a 100 watt version for sure but it would be bigger, heavier and more costly. Maybe in the future they'll make a second 100 watt model.

As it is, I'm glad I own both.
 

Dave_C

Member
Messages
14,096
I have used the GT100's power section for slaving with other amps. No you can't use the load in the amp obviously but it does work really well for slaving as you have 100 watts, big iron and a tube buffered tone controls. You just need to use a load. I've used the Hot Plate, the Unleash's load as well as the Power Station's load. It all works. The PS is more transparent though right off the bat. One advantage I found with the Guytron is that because the main output section is 100 watts and uses really large transformers there is more low end girth. The final output section will play a factor. Fryette could make a 100 watt version for sure but it would be bigger, heavier and more costly. Maybe in the future they'll make a second 100 watt model.

As it is, I'm glad I own both.
The Guytron was a great amp. If I had gotten into it when the F/V came out, I'd probably still own it.

As for the PS, I can't imagine being any happier with a 100W version, especially given how the EQ switches and Depth control can give me far more girth than I can handle....not to mention the amp itself.
 




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