Recording 1X12 vs. 2X12 HELP!

Discussion in 'Recording/Live Sound' started by JKoeth, Apr 30, 2005.


  1. JKoeth

    JKoeth Supporting Member

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    Yo Guys, So I've had my new Tophat CR 1X12 Deep Cab Tube Rec for a few days now and I really like it but a few of you on the Tophat Forum have helped me decide that I'd like the 2X12 Better. I'm planning on returning it this week and getting the 2X12 Deep Cab for more Bass/Spread/Dynamics etc.

    The fellow at Fat Sound mentioned to me that he thought that the 1X12 would record much better and would be better for micing live because it wouldn't suffer from phase cancellation. For those of you that understand what this is, this doesn't make too much sense to me.

    People record with 2X12's and 4X12's all the time, not to mention playing live. Wouldn't close micing on one speaker eliminate the problem? And when recording with 2 mics, say one close and one farther away (room), can't you reverse the phase of one of the mics to eliminate the problem there?

    Thanks for your input!

    --Jamie
     
  2. LSchefman

    LSchefman Supporting Member

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    Jamie, you're right.

    Phase cancellation can happen with a 112 just as with a 212, depending on number of mics, distances, etc.

    If you mic a 212 with one mic, you're not going to get any phase cancellation, except room modes/comb filtering that you're as likely to get with a 112.

    In other words, the issues are the same regardless of whether it's a single speaker or multiple speakers.

    However, a 112 can be a little easier to record because it might excite fewer room modes, depending on the room's size, configuration, etc.

    Whoever you spoke with was a little confused.
     
  3. JKoeth

    JKoeth Supporting Member

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    Thank you so much. I'm pretty basic when it comes to recording knowledge but I knew that didn't make sense!

    You rock, man. Thanks again!

    --Jamie
     
  4. DestroyAllGuitars

    DestroyAllGuitars Member

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    I have several TopHats in my studio. I have some 1X12's
    and some 2X12's and they all sound great and record great
    IMO. Buy whichever amp sounds best to your ears and you can
    always find a way to capture it's magic on tape or hard disc
    by using different mics and mic placement. There are no rules,
    follow your ears.
     
  5. TAVD

    TAVD Guitar Player Gold Supporting Member

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    It's possible to get phase cancellation from 2 speakers and one mic, just like it is from 1 speaker and 2 mics. But the distance between the speakers is small enough that I wouldn't worry about it.
     
  6. tms13pin

    tms13pin Supporting Member

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    If you close mic the 2x12 with one mic, you're not likely to
    have a significant problem with phase cancellation as the
    direct sound from the speaker you are micing will be much
    higher in level than what you'll be picking up from the other
    driver.

    If you pull the mic back and place it at the center line between
    the two drivers, then yes, you'll get cancellation, but if your
    engineer suggests doing this, you should fire him/her, unless
    the cancellation is a specific sound you're going for!

    If your engineer decides to mic the cab with one close mic
    and one mic placed back a ways (perfectly reasonable thing
    to do, and a pretty cool blend) you will most likely capture
    a very similar sound with either a 1x12 and 2x12 with the close
    mic (assuming similar drivers, cab style, etc.) and the more
    "ambient" mic, placed back, will most resemble the farther
    field tone of the specific cab you have, which will be different
    for a 1x12 or 2x12, more like what a listener would hear
    sitting back listening to you play in the same room.

    As I stated above, this can be a cool thing to have, especially
    if you have the tracks to burn. If you've got the tracking room,
    it's even cooler to use one close mic and then a *pair* of mics
    back further in one of the binaural micing techniques to capture
    a stereo sound that mimics what a real listener would hear.
    You can then add as much of this as you like later while mixing.
    (I often do a stereo pair like this some distance away from a
    drum kit when I mic it, just to dial in some real ambience when
    mixing... you can control how much later... really brings out the
    life of the thing.)

    I'd say, do a bunch of experiments and go with what you like,
    but the 2x12 isn't gonna sound *that* much different than the
    1x12 if you're only close micing one driver.

    --Tom
     
  7. JKoeth

    JKoeth Supporting Member

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    Fantastic responses all. Thank you very much!

    --Jamie
     
  8. lookslikemeband

    lookslikemeband Member

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    +1

    +1

    +1

    I have several TH's as well, and I have an original "scripty" King Royale. In my opinion, it gives me the versatility of a combo... the sound to play ANY venue.... (and the dream alive that I just might play some of the world's greatest venues!!) :D

    Besides. TH's are just plain awesome!

    Lance
     
  9. joseph

    joseph Member

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    Needless to say, but I'll say it- if you can't have a real studio room -

    if you get enough CPU/RAM and a good program (Cubase SX3 for me, something on that level of versatility) - and a very good AD interface with amp/cab emulators, you can record direct, and duplicate the track several times with EQ, reverb, gain changes as well as slight pans and very slight (ie 11 msec) timing changes to achieve much the same effect.

    As said above, use your ears, learn the rules, then break them :D .
     
  10. jay24

    jay24 Supporting Member

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    In a live setting without my amps being miced, I can clearly hear the difference between a 1x12 vs a 2x12. I think it sounds bigger and deeper to me.

    So my question is.. In a recording scenario where we use just one mic in just one cone in exactly the same way with both amps, would we obtain that same difference in sound or would a 1x12 sound exactly the same as a 2x12. Not just in a recording scenario but when micing the amps up for a concert as well. Can that one mic capture all the differences that a 2x12, or even a 4x12 is making compared to the 1x12?

    When micing live and studio, what setup do you prefer and why? I've read in a few places that 1x12 is more ideal for micing. I'm pretty new to micing and recording so I would definitely appreciate your experience and suggestions. Thanks!!
     
  11. ReginaldBisquet

    ReginaldBisquet Member

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    Agreed. 1x12 v. 2x12 should provide for greater depth in sound. This also depends on the speakers in the cabinet and how the amp is set up. I have a 2x12 with two different speakers - both rated at 8ohms, 100 watts. In a live setting, you would only hear the blended sound. With recording... you have to really work your mic placement to achieve the same experience.


    Depends on mic placement relative to the cone(s) and your speaker set up. Several (millions actually) other factors come into play: room size, mic type, music style, baffling options, etc.


    I use a wide range of techniques because we play Middle Eastern/India/Far East styles of music. So recording a saz is going to be a drastically different process than recording a harmonium. However, with bass and guitar amps ~ I use wood baffles along with an SM-57, a modified SM58, and a Tascam DR-1 placed several feet away for room ambiance.

    A lazy excuse.
     
  12. meterman

    meterman Member

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    Great choice of amps! Big TopHat fan and I've owned both 1x12 Club Deluxe and 2x12 Super Deluxe combos. For gigs I like the 2x12, and use the 1x12 for practices. I've recorded with both....The 1x12 is very focused but I don't think you'd have a problem recording the 2x12, AC30s/Twins/DR/etc are all 2 speaker combos that record great. If you can only have one and need it for recording and gigs I'd get the 2x12 deep cab.
     

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