RedPlate Blues Machine - Volume Reduction 6V6 or ToneShield or???

Kruegmeister

Member
Messages
640
So I love my RedPlate Blues Machine, but I need to "Turn Down" just slightly, I'm right about 1 on the Master. (Pic at end for Current Settings)
I'm running a TSV808 into a Klon both always on & this gives me a good Tone at low volumes.
But dammit if I wasn't ask for a slight volume reduction.
I love how it sounds when I'm getting the master above 1 with the 6L6s
So my thoughts are to get some NOS RCA 6V6GT VT-107A Blackplate so I can run 18w
-or-
Something like the ToneShield
-or-
Something Else?

20201214_171131.jpg
 

gulliver

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
13,762
I changed my Redplate Blackloop from 6L6 to vintage 6V6. I did like the change, but I won't say it was a night and day change and I can't say that I noticed a difference at low volumes ... I usually play at the upper end of house-acceptable volumes or what one might call medium drummer volumes.

I would try it without the pedals and let the amp do its thing, it is good at low volumes without pedals or an attenuator. I've tried it with an attenuator and it compresses more, but not a change in goodness. With this, you can raise the amp up off the floor, so it hits your ears with more impact. You'll need to turn it down even more, but the results might work for you.
 

Spider-Man

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,299
You've got to me kidding me. Turn down from those settings???!!! The amp is barely on with the master that low.

Mine is a Blues Machine 66 with the Pentode/Triode switch. Yours looks like an older model because I have Gain and Volume controls in the first (clean) channel. Anyway, in Triode mode it's not nearly as loud (reduces output by 66% according to the manual). Later models have a Hi/Low power switch that runs at 50 or 18 watts. Does yours have either of those switches?

With 6V6 tubes, you have to run in the Cathode Biased mode and Keith at RedPlate also told me to run with the speaker impedance set to 4 ohms. I have not tried that for a few years so I really don't remember if it reduced the volume as much as it just reduces the clean headroom.

Mine is a head/cab and I'm running a Celestion V-Type. What speaker are you running in yours? The V-Type has a 98db sensitivity rating. You could also try running with a speaker that has lower sensitivity rating, depending on what you are currently using.
 
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ProfRhino

Member
Messages
10,399
6V6 can be cool, but they sound way different ... :dunno
the best solution for this extremely limiting scenario would be something like a PS2.
bet the amp will sound like 30% better than it does now, and you'll have a "lossless" volume control.
ymmv,
Rhino

my ADD has the same power stage, and I also do re-amping (via Suhr though).
 

Kruegmeister

Member
Messages
640
You've got to me kidding me. Turn down from those settings???!!! The amp is barely on with the master that low.

Mine is a Blues Machine 66 with the Pentode/Triode switch. Yours looks like an older model because I have Gain and Volume controls in the first (clean) channel. Anyway, in Triode mode it's not nearly as loud (reduces output by 66% according to the manual). Later models have a Hi/Low power switch that runs at 50 or 18 watts. Does yours have either of those switches?

With 6V6 tubes, you have to run in the Cathode Biased mode and Keith at RedPlate also told me to run with the speaker impedance set to 4 ohms. I have not tried that for a few years so I really don't remember if it reduced the volume as much as it just reduces the clean headroom.

Mine is a head/cab and I'm running a Celestion V-Type. What speaker are you running in yours? The V-Type has a 98db sensitivity rating. You could also try running with a speaker that has lower sensitivity rating, depending on what you are currently using.

Tell me about it.... I do not want to have to Turn Down, cause it loses the umphh... Drummer is "Electronic Roland Set" so this is a Small Venue Band...
I am using the "Low Power" Switch. Sounds like that just gives Breakup Sooner.
Not Clear if I can use the 40 Watt Cathode Biased with my 6L6??? Not sure how to read that...
But I do not think I get 18w without using 6V6 from the Manual:

50 WATT / 40 WATT Switch – This switch changes the bias architecture of the output tubes from fixed bias (50 WATT) to cathode biased (40 WATT).

The 40 WATT position allows the use of 6V6 tubes for lower power output (~18 Watts with 6v6).

HI/LO POWER Switch – Changes the voltage on the power amp input stage (Phase Inverter tube) so the amplifier breaks up sooner.


PS2? Fryette PS2 I assume?
I also have a Fractal X-LOAD LB-2 Reactive Load Box that I was going to try next Practice, but I didn't feel like that did a whole lot of Volume Reduction when I used it on my Diezel D-Moll... But worth giving a go on the RedPlate.

Part of why I am thinking about something like the ToneShield or a Plexiglass Box isolation is to some extent I may not be pushing the Speaker enough any lower than 1 on the Master... My Speaker is a Warehouse Veteran 30 which is rated @ 60 watts
 

Spider-Man

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,299
Yes, you can use 40 watt Cathode biased with 6L6 tubes. Changing to cathode bias will change the way the amp sags and responds a bit but won’t lower the volume. Yours is an older version of the amp than mine and doesn’t look like it offers an 18 watt option like the later ones do.

Looks like that speaker is a 100db speaker so using a speaker with a lower sensitivity rating will lower the volume a bit. The V-Type would be 3db lower and is similar to the Veteran 30.

At 1 on the volume I’m not even getting full output on mine - there’s no low end until I get it up a little more.

That’s really pathetic they want your volume that low. I’d look at attenuators or just use a modeler through a monitor for really low volumes like that. What’s the point of even using an amp if you can’t crank it up to its sweet spot! I’m running mine around 4 on the master volume when playing with a drummer. Or just find a real drummer to play with. I hate electronic drums.
 
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Bluewail

Tone curmudgeon
Gold Supporting Member
Messages
2,006
Definitely try 6v6’s. They sound great in that amp. The volume reduction isn’t great but the feel is wonderful
 

HeavyCream

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,100
If you just need a a little volume reduction, try 6v6’s and a less efficient speaker. C12N, G12M, something along those lines. Could be Scumback or Weber rather than Jensen or Celestion.

You’ll still be fairly limited if you’re currently running the MV at 1, even with those changes. I’m with @ProfRhino. A PS2 will give you all the volume control and flexibility you want. You’d be able to set the amp any way you want, and keep the volume as low as you want.


Tell me about it.... I do not want to have to Turn Down, cause it loses the umphh... Drummer is "Electronic Roland Set" so this is a Small Venue Band...
I am using the "Low Power" Switch. Sounds like that just gives Breakup Sooner.
Not Clear if I can use the 40 Watt Cathode Biased with my 6L6??? Not sure how to read that...
But I do not think I get 18w without using 6V6 from the Manual:

50 WATT / 40 WATT Switch – This switch changes the bias architecture of the output tubes from fixed bias (50 WATT) to cathode biased (40 WATT).

The 40 WATT position allows the use of 6V6 tubes for lower power output (~18 Watts with 6v6).

HI/LO POWER Switch – Changes the voltage on the power amp input stage (Phase Inverter tube) so the amplifier breaks up sooner.



PS2? Fryette PS2 I assume?
I also have a Fractal X-LOAD LB-2 Reactive Load Box that I was going to try next Practice, but I didn't feel like that did a whole lot of Volume Reduction when I used it on my Diezel D-Moll... But worth giving a go on the RedPlate.

Part of why I am thinking about something like the ToneShield or a Plexiglass Box isolation is to some extent I may not be pushing the Speaker enough any lower than 1 on the Master... My Speaker is a Warehouse Veteran 30 which is rated @ 60 watts

I don’t know much about the Fractal X-Load but if it’s a reactive load, you should be able to use it just like a PS/2 if you have a separate power amp you can use to reamp the line out from your reactive load. It might not be how you want to run your rig all the time but it’s worth experimenting with to see how you like it. The PS/2’s are reactive loads with a power amp in one unit, plus an FX loop.

So you’d go from the amp speaker output, to your Fractal X-load, out of X-load line out to a separate power amp (if you don’t have a straight up power amp, you can route the X-Load line out into the FX Return of another amp, accessing the power amp only), then from the speaker out of that power amp to your RedPlate’s speaker (or any speaker/cab you want). This sort of thing is easier to accomplish with a head/cab rig. You might not be able to set it up without a speaker cable coupling or something else that enables you to run from another amp to the speaker in a combo cab.

Edit: Just checked out the X-Load. It appears to be a pretty straight forward reactive load like the Suhr RL. If you were plugging your Diezel into the X-Load, then using the “Through Speaker” output to the speaker, you’re not going to get any volume reduction at all. It can’t be used like an attenuator. You have to use the Line Out to a power amp the way I described above. And don’t plug any speakers into the X-Load speaker out.

It might sound complicated but when you hear guys talking about “reamping” with a reactive load, that’s what we’re talking about. We do it because it sounds excellent at lower volume and smokes just about any resistive attenuator. The PS/2 unit(s) simplify the setup by putting a reactive load and power amp in the same unit. So does the TAE and OX.
 
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ProfRhino

Member
Messages
10,399
If you just need a a little volume reduction, try 6v6’s and a less efficient speaker. C12N, G12M, something along those lines. Could be Scumback or Weber rather than Jensen or Celestion.

You’ll still be fairly limited if you’re currently running the MV at 1, even with those changes. I’m with @ProfRhino. A PS2 will give you all the volume control and flexibility you want. You’d be able to set the amp any way you want, and keep the volume as low as you want.

I don’t know much about the Fractal X-Load but if it’s a reactive load, you should be able to use it just like a PS/2 if you have a separate power amp you can use to reamp the line out from your reactive load. It might not be how you want to run your rig all the time but it’s worth experimenting with to see how you like it. The PS/2’s are reactive loads with a power amp in one unit, plus an FX loop.

So you’d go from the amp speaker output, to your Fractal X-load, out of X-load line out to a separate power amp (if you don’t have a straight up power amp, you can route the X-Load line out into the FX Return of another amp, accessing the power amp only), then from the speaker out of that power amp to your RedPlate’s speaker (or any speaker/cab you want). This sort of thing is easier to accomplish with a head/cab rig. You might not be able to set it up without a speaker cable coupling or something else that enables you to run from another amp to the speaker in a combo cab.

Edit: Just checked out the X-Load. It appears to be a pretty straight forward reactive load like the Suhr RL. If you were plugging your Diezel into the X-Load, then using the “Though Speaker” output to the speaker, you’re not going to get any volume reduction at all. It can’t be used like an attenuator. You have to use the Line Out to a power amp the way I described above. And don’t plug any speakers into the X-Load speaker out.

It might sound complicated but when you hear guys talking about “reamping” with a reactive load, that’s what we’re talking about. We do it because it sounds excellent at lower volume and smokes just about any resistive attenuator. The PS/2 unit(s) simplify the setup by putting a reactive load and power amp in the same unit. So does the TAE and OX.

PS2? Fryette PS2 I assume?
I also have a Fractal X-LOAD LB-2 Reactive Load Box that I was going to try next Practice, but I didn't feel like that did a whole lot of Volume Reduction when I used it on my Diezel D-Moll... But worth giving a go on the RedPlate.
yup, Fryette PS2 or similar.
but Houston - we've got a problem ! :omg
the X-Load is a superb device, right up there with the Suhr RL - we AB'ed them in detail at my studio. :aok
however - both are reactive loads, not attenuators, and only half (the front end) of a PS2 style re-amper !
@HeavyCream is correct, on all points - chances are you might not have been using the Fractal correctly. *

I'll try to explain (short version) :
think of a reactive load (RL) as a speaker that doesn't produce sound.
your amp will be perfectly happy with just an RL and no cab.
crank it up all the way if you want, no problem.
but you still won't hear anything.
3 strategies to use it in your scenario :
  1. connect it in parallel with your speaker, set the amp @ 4 Ohms. This will knock off a few dB of volume. Not game changing, but in combination with 6V6, half power and a less efficient speaker it will be quite noticeable.
  2. the way it was meant to be used (live) - no cab, amp @ 8 Ohms, DI out > IR loader (e.g. Torpedo Cab) > PA. Put it on your wedge or in-ear in the mixer, so you can hear your guitar
  3. the creative way - DIY PS2 style re-amper ! :cool: no cab directly connected, amp @ 8 Ohms, DI out > separate power amp with volume control > guitar cab. Works beautifully - crank up your amp to its sweet spot (even if that would mean dimed, but that's not how I would use the RP !), dial in your listening volume seamlessly and sonically neutral at the extra power amp ! :idea
(3) would be my preference by a long shot, in fact I often do exactly that with my Suhr RLs.
the extra power amp could be either tube or solid state, even running into another amp's FX return would work to some degree (although this might colour your tone, depending on the other amp).

suggestion :
all these concepts have been discussed to death here, just search for Suhr RL instead of X-Load, 100% equivalent !
do some solid research and try to understand the differences, then come back, tell us which way you want to go, and we can walk you through the details, if needed.
deal ?
Rhino

* simply connecting the X-Load between amp and speaker will disable the entire load circuitry, your volume will not change !
Basically, you'll end up with an obscenely overpriced DI box ! :p
 

Spider-Man

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,299
At this point I’d just use a modeler with a powered monitor rather than go through that reactive load with an IR loader mess, or the revolving door of speakers as you try changing to a less efficient speaker. I use a Fractal FM3 with in-ears when playing with electric drums. It’s fantastic. I use amps cranked up to appropriate volumes when playing with real drums. I prefer amps, but current modelers are really good.

I saw another post where you said the amp had 6V6 tubes in it when you originally got it and you commented on preferring the 6L6 tubes better. Maybe the 6V6 tubes will work out better this time. Regardless, at 1 on the volume knob my BM66 sounds pathetic and weak. Good luck.
 

ProfRhino

Member
Messages
10,399
At this point I’d just use a modeler with a powered monitor rather than go through that reactive load with an IR loader mess, or the revolving door of speakers as you try changing to a less efficient speaker. I use a Fractal FM3 with in-ears when playing with electric drums. It’s fantastic. I use amps cranked up to appropriate volumes when playing with real drums. I prefer amps, but current modelers are really good.

I saw another post where you said the amp had 6V6 tubes in it when you originally got it and you commented on preferring the 6L6 tubes better. Maybe the 6V6 tubes will work out better this time. Regardless, at 1 on the volume knob my BM66 sounds pathetic and weak. Good luck.
I won't disagree.
had to make lots of dubious compromises live, when I was still young and needed the money - an AxeFX would be better than most. :dunno
but not playing out anymore, my only concern is tone, and that's exactly what my various RL setups give me.
ymmv,
Rhino
 

Spider-Man

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,299
Yeah, I don't want to turn this into a modeler discussion in the Amps and Cabs forum. Both are tools to make music. Each has pros and cons. Use the best tool for the job.

At home, I always prefer plugging into my amps over digital gear unless I need to practice silently. Just like I prefer playing with a drummer using real drums instead of electronics. Amps rule for sure, and the Blues Machine is a great sounding amp as long as you get to turn it up to at least 1.5, LOL!
 

Spider-Man

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,299
That's a good suggestion, assuming he's not using 4-cable method with the effects loop for time based FX.
 

Kruegmeister

Member
Messages
640
At this point I’d just use a modeler with a powered monitor rather than go through that reactive load with an IR loader mess, or the revolving door of speakers as you try changing to a less efficient speaker. I use a Fractal FM3 with in-ears when playing with electric drums. It’s fantastic. I use amps cranked up to appropriate volumes when playing with real drums. I prefer amps, but current modelers are really good.

I saw another post where you said the amp had 6V6 tubes in it when you originally got it and you commented on preferring the 6L6 tubes better. Maybe the 6V6 tubes will work out better this time. Regardless, at 1 on the volume knob my BM66 sounds pathetic and weak. Good luck.

My BluesMachine Came with some 6V6 in there, I bought the Sveltania 6L6s.
The 6V6 I put back in there, switched to 4 Ohm, but they were a bit noisy, so I think I need a replacement set.
I'm going to try the X-Load next practice.
I have my old Eleven Rack & had a Fractal AxeFX II at one Point.
I could never get along with the FRFR, but that was playing in a Different band... Different Style
 

Spider-Man

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,299
Yeah, FRFR sucks. I'm an open-back cabinet guy. For what it's worth, things have progressed quite a bit from the AxeII, but FRFR is still what it is, which is NOT a guitar amp.
 

stelligan

Member
Messages
1,098
Try running a line level effect in the effects loop that has an input and output level. Open up the master and use the pots on the loop device to reduce overall volume. I use a Rocktron Intellifex in the loop of my 4 x 6L6 Magic Dust and it works wonders. Allows for opening up the master and taming the overall levels.

Cheers!
 




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