So is this what Martino means by "relative diminished"? That Edim7 is a "relative diminished" of A7#5?Clifford-D said:Code:Lower any note and create a Dominant 7th chord with that name. ..Dim7...Eb7...A7....C7....F#7 |---3-----3-----3-----3-----2-|-| |---2-----2-----2-----1-----2-|-| |---3-----3-----2-----3-----3-|-| |---2-----1-----2-----2-----2-|-| |-----------------------------|-| |-----------------------------|-|
This info is excellently layed out in a number of Martino books.
I'm going to explain it because this concept does not belong to Mr Martino.
It belongs to the universe.
The diminished chord is what is called symetrical and moves in parallel motion up by minor 3rds.
|---3---6---9---12-|-|
|---2---5---8---11-|-|
|---3---6---9---12-|-|
|---2---5---8---11-|-|
|------------------|-|
|------------------|-|
See how these diminished chords are all made of the same notes.
E Bb Db and G, and they move up and down by minor 3rds.
Here's the trick
Lower any note and create a Dominant 7th chord with that name.
..Dim7...Eb7...A7....C7....F#7
|---3-----3-----3-----3-----2-|-|
|---2-----2-----2-----1-----2-|-|
|---3-----3-----2-----3-----3-|-|
|---2-----1-----2-----2-----2-|-|
|-----------------------------|-|
|-----------------------------|-|
You can also use the '4 chord shapes'
to play the same chord up/down the neck
Eb7
|---3---6---9---11-|-|
|---2---4---8---11-|-|
|---3---6---8---12-|-|
|---1---5---8---11-|-|
|------------------|-|
|------------------|-|
You can create major and minor triads from the
augmented chord in the same way as the diminished 7th chord.
Augmented chord
|---3----7----11-|
|---4----8----12-|
|---4----8----12-|
|----------------|
|----------------|
|----------------|
Major chords
...Aug..G..Eb...B
|---3---3---3---2-|-|
|---4---3---4---4-|-|
|---4---4---3---4-|-|
|-----------------|-|
|-----------------|-|
|-----------------|-|
Minor chords
...Aug...Emin..Cmin..Abmin
|---3-----3-----3-----4-|-|
|---4-----5-----4-----4-|-|
|---4-----4-----5-----4-|-|
|-----------------------|-|
|-----------------------|-|
|-----------------------|-|
I find the dim/aug concepts an interesting way to
span the fretboard with a chord.
Much like the five shapes of the CAGED Chord System.
It's an organizational tool.
Of course the dim/aug approach can really expand into
some advanced harmonic applications.
Check out Jack Zucker's Dodecaphonics posts.
If you want to really step outside. Excellent.
Some people like to think of a minor chord instead of a 7th chord. For instance, lets say you have a tune with a long section of A7. Instead of thinking A7 that whole time, you could think Emin7. This is something Wes Montgomery did a lot, which is where Martino got it. But he took it a step further. Anyway, instead of A7#5 you could think of Emin/maj7 (E melodic minor). E harmonic minor gives you another color over A7, etc. Basically the idea is the 7th chord is a V7 (regardless of it's function in the tune) and you can preceed that V7 with it's ii7. So A7 - Emin7.
As far as relative diminished I'm not sure, but I could guess. It's very common to imply a diminished chord over a minor chord to give a line some movement. Let's say you have a section of Emin- you could imply the V7 of Emin (some type of B7 chord). B7b9 gives you the notes of a dimished chord (Cdim). So it's a sub of a sub. Anyway, if you look at the notes in Cdim7 you have C Eb Gb A. That's the same notes as an Adim chord. In some way, everything can be connected by diminished chords.
Here is the link to the You Tube video I referenced -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Dur8uocnBY
If you do a Google search for relative diminished pat martino it's the 2nd thread that pops up. I had downloaded an article off the binary newsgroups sometime ago that was called "Relative Minorising" which was similar in nature. Thinking back to the video I think he was using minor scales (dorian, melodic minor) in m3rd steps starting on the b7...so if he was playing A7#5 (don't know why that was the example chord) he would play the minor scale over G, Bb, Db, E. Hence the diminished movement.
Whatever it was it sounded cool, highly recommend watching the vid.
When playing over a dom7 chord you can use any dom7 arp, a m7 arp, and a m7b5 arp in minor 3rds from the Root of the original dom7 chord. This is due to them being found in the Diminished scale.
So, for G7 you can use:
G7, Bb7, Db7, E7 arps
Gm7, Bbm7, Dbm7, Em7 arps
Gm7b5, Bbm7b5, Dbm7b5, Em7b5 arps
And, don't forget to try every combination either
This works really good when G7 is the V7 moving to either a Imaj7 or a Im7 chord.
I'm not overly familiar with Martino's concept, but I am working on a book on tonal diminished-based dodecaphonic melodization*. I won't give away too much, but just some food for thought:
Each of the three diminished scales in equal-temperament contains:
4 major triads
4 minor triads
4 minor seventh tetrachords
4 dominant seventh-type tetrachords
4 half-diminished tetrachords
2 diminished seventh tetrachords (8 if you think of the ones they represent in just-tuning).
Just as the tritone bisects the octave, a diminished seventh tetrachord quadrisects the octave (divides it into four equal parts).
In reference to the above, any non-extended major, minor, dominant seventh, half-diminished, minor seventh, or diminished chord would have three others-- closely related quadrisect substitutes-- that share the same parent-diminished scale. For this reason, they can freely substitute for one another, functionally. E.g., V7, bVII7, bII7 (and to a lesser degree) III7 resolving to I all exploit the same type of leading-tone energy.
Although as soon as you extend the chords beyond the tetrachord the sharing steps outside of the parent diminished scale, artistic license allows us to continue to dip into this pool to exploit these oblique relationships. As long as the artist is comfortable with the logic behind the relationships, the audience will be comfortable with it, too.
There are some ways of extending the logic out further to allow completely tonal (i.e. chord-scale based), yet dodecaphonic melodization.
*I like to use "melodization" rather than "improvisation," because these concepts can be applied in real-time or during conventional composition. I also like the implied contrast with "harmonization." When we "harmonize" something, we derive chords from the melody. In conventional playing-over-changes, we are doing just the opposite: deriving a melody (hopefully beautiful and imaginative) from the chords. Also, improvisation is everywhere. When I accompany another soloist as a member of the rhythm section, I am improvising just as much as the soloist is.
when I finish the book, you can buy it and it will be hopefully explained with more clarity.![]()
OK I watched it. It's interesting, if not totally convincing (IMO).Here is the link to the You Tube video I referenced -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Dur8uocnBY
If you do a Google search for relative diminished pat martino it's the 2nd thread that pops up. I had downloaded an article off the binary newsgroups sometime ago that was called "Relative Minorising" which was similar in nature. Thinking back to the video I think he was using minor scales (dorian, melodic minor) in m3rd steps starting on the b7...so if he was playing A7#5 (don't know why that was the example chord) he would play the minor scale over G, Bb, Db, E. Hence the diminished movement.
Whatever it was it sounded cool, highly recommend watching the vid.
--11-8/9--8-6-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------9--8-6--------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------8--7\6----5----4---3--------------------------------------------
------------------------------7---6----5----5---------3-------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------6--3/4----3-2-0/1--3/4--6p3--3p1----0--0-0-----------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------3--------------------
Eb C Db C Bb Ab G F Eb D Db A C Ab B G Bb G Eb C Db F C B A Bb C Db Eb C C Bb G A A A
Bbm7 arpeggio
. . |_._|__|__._|_.__._|__._.__|_._.__|_._.__._|__|_._._._|__.__|_.__._.__| . . . .
A7#5 chord tones
. . |_._.__.__|_|_.__._|__|_.__._._|__._|_.__._|__|_._._|_.__.__|_.__._.__._|_|__|_|
Bb dorian
|__|__|_|_|__|__|_|_|__._|__._|__|_._|__|_|_|__|_|__|_|_._._|__|__|_|__|_|__|_| . . .
A altered scale (Bb melodic minor)
|__|__|_|_|__.__|_|_|__._|__|_|__._._|__|_|_|__|_|__|_|_._|_|__|__|_|__|_|__|_|_|__|_|
A wholetone
|__.__|_._.__.__|_|_|__._|__|_.____|_|__._|_|____|__|___|_|_.__.__|_|__._.__._|_|__|_|
Approach notes to chord tones (immediately resolved)
|(b3) |(M7) |(4) |(b3) |(b3)
One thing I've gotten from Pat's ideas, is using both his "Convert to minor" and "Parental Diminished" concepts together.
If a Parental C Dim. 7 chord yields 4 Dominant chords (B7, D7, F7, Ab7), then, you have the implied 4 minor chords (ii chords leading to V chords.
So, B7 = F#m7 to B7 = F# Dorian
D7 = Am7 to D7 = A Dorian
F7 = Cm7 to F7 = C Dorian
Ab7 = Ebm7 to Ab7 = Eb Dorian
Again minor 3rd. movement.
No, IMO. That's the best way to think, initially anyway. Key centres, key scales.Maybe this is where I get into trouble. Or not. What you've posted here is a pretty simple concept to me compared to the other stuff presented here.
I dont like thinking modes. Dorian, ionian whatever... In the instances you've given for the 7 chords and the ii-V there Im thinking keys. And, because Im an improvisational novice, I usually will look at a piece of music and go ahead and find all the key changes and solo over major scales (because Ive related it all back to a major scale ex. Ebm7-Ab7 automatically becomes key of Db for me) with the exception of certain chords such as Amin7b5 were I use different scale choices.
Do I need to abandon this line of thinking?