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Reverb Unit Dilemma

neu18

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
717
I had a question about reverb.

So I had a spring chicken before & when I would drive my tube amp, the reverb went apeshit.

I thought buying the 63 reverb would fix this. But once again, the reverb is waaaay too sensitive when the tubes are being driven more (i.e. louder volumes on the amp).

Why do amps with built in reverb not go crazy even when the amp is cranked? Is this the only real solution? If so, then the coolest working amp reverb I've seen is the Vibro-King!

Would having an effects loop fix this problem? I think the 63 reverb manual says the reverb sounds better when it's plugged right into an amp. I've also tried plugging the 63 reverb into the effects loop of a suhr badger 18 and found the reverb lackluster when used this way.

I was eyeing the JMI reverb unit, but don't want the same problems.

Thanks.
 

mahler

Member
Messages
1,399
Reverb likes to be after drive, so when your reverb is first in the chain its going to suck when the amp is driving, Effects loop would help some what but as you increase volume your power tubes are driving the amp as well so the reverb will still suck. The only way I can think of fixing it without installing a Reverb tank, is to run a drive pedal into a reverb pedal in a clean amp!
 
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neu18

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
717
hmmm, that's what I suspected.

How do you explain the reverb not going crazy when it's built into the amp?

Would it be possible to built my 63 reverb unit into the actual amp?
 

mahler

Member
Messages
1,399
My GUESS (hehe) would be that the audio path is run through both the preamp and amplifier sent to reverb tank and then brought back up at the end of the audio path and then sent to the speaker.

I say guess as I am not a qualified amp person, I'm pretty sure this is how my amps reverb works from what I have seen when I've done work on them! Using this work I did and the sounds I hear out of the amp, that what I can come up with!


PS also just looked at amp with reverbs schematic and it seems to agree with my theory :D! Hopefully someone more confident with their answer than me can chime in!

If your 63 unit is a pedal NO! But if its actual spring or plate or well reverb unit yes, but It could be costly to put on (if use a tech). But a Boss 63 will not be able to be "built in to the amp" I'm sure it's possible to be done but It wouldn't be worth the effort, time, and or money!
 

mahler

Member
Messages
1,399
If you really love the reverb and don't want to get a new amp or a reverb unit put in, I would find a really nice drive pedal!
 
Messages
5,124
What is your path? Guitar > reverb > amp? Guitar > distortion >amp > fx loop?
Keep in mind that, if distortion is after your reverb pedal, then you are distorting your reverb trails, which makes for sonic garbage if you have a lot of dwell and verb.
 

SUPROficial

Member
Messages
422
How do you explain the reverb not going crazy when it's built into the amp?
In most amps it is between the preamp and power amp, the reverb is added to whatever dirt is in front of it, in other words the only distortion applied to the reverb is from the amp's output stage.

Using an outboard reverb like a pedal or a Fender tube tank places the reverb before the amp's preamp, so the reverb signal is being amplified (and overdriven) along with your dry signal.
It is also getting subjected to the same EQ as your dry signal, unlike the reverb that is added post-preamp, as in a reverb-equipped Fender amp, for example.
 
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maninblack

Member
Messages
15
When you overdrive the amp the signal is distorted as well as compressed. As the guitar signal fades off or you cut the note off the reverb fades in and will be overbearing compared to your less overdriven sounds. You can see how it works by not overdriving the amp and plugging the guitar through a reverb unit and then a compressor and playing to see how it reacts. You will hear the reverb fade in as the note dies out.

I just turn the reverb down until it sounds right but contrary to the answer Mahler gave you the built in reverb is also before the power tubes and is also effected by overdrive but to a much lesser extent as your preamp is overdriven much more than the power tubes. If you have an effects loop and run it through the effects loop it will sound and react the same as if you have a built in reverb as they are both after the preamp and before the power section.

By the way, if you are using pedals for overdrive and/or compression always put them before your reverb or delay pedal to reduce the compression effect.
 
Messages
1,138
Any time you're pushing the power tubes into saturation, whatever is being amplified is going to be affected. If u want clean verb, your power tube output must be clean. If the amp verb is good, chances are you aren't overdriving the power tubes. Try getting your dirt with pedals, and put your verb at the end of your chain, or in the Fx loop.
 

neu18

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
717
hmm, thanks. BTW it is an actual reverb unit. The Fender 63 unit. It would be interesting building that into my amp! More tubes would certainly rattle though!

My chain goes like this:

guitar --> st-200 tuner--> TC nova Delay --> 63 Reverb Reissue Unit --> AC30H2L

Like I said before, the reverb didn't sound as nice when plugged into an effects loop for some reason. I don't know if there's room for me to build it into the amp, unless I attatched it on top.

Sort if the same concept like the guy in this video? Thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj7PVszMNOs - except I'd make it detatchable somehow.


I think I like the sound of the overdriven amp more than clean with reverb. I've tried turning the reverb down when the amp is overdriven, but it's just not the same.
 

mad dog

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
11,032
77:

Every external reverb unit and pedal reacts somewhat differently into a turned up amp. I found the '63 RI outboard unit too harsh and clangy in stock form. Several mods later, it was dramatically improved. I've run that unit and others (Clark, Victoria) in front of pretty loud amps, no problems. Maybe because I use pretty conservative reverb settings?? Also, clean boost only, no other dirt in front of the reverb.
MD
 

neu18

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
717
what mods did you do?

Thinking of maybe getting the JMI Rangemaster as my "boost"
 

mad dog

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
11,032
77:

Ditched the stock 6v6 power tube, used 6k6 NOS. Had one of the caps changed. Swapped out the stock 2 spring, long decay tank for a 3 spring medium decay. Used NOS preamp tubes. With that one, the stock tank was harsh as hell. (Some just are, luck of the draw.) So that tank swap was the biggest difference, and better tubes helped greatly too. It's worth the trouble ... these units can sound really good.
MD
 

jzucker

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
20,964
My GUESS (hehe) would be that the audio path is run through both the preamp and amplifier sent to reverb tank and then brought back up at the end of the audio path and then sent to the speaker.
No, that's not correct. In every amp I know of with built in reverb, the reverb sits in a buffered loop prior to the phase inverter. If you crank the amp up loud enough to get extreme power tube overdrive, the reverb will be clanky. Fenders are hard to get to this point because the preamp doesn't drive the tubes that hard but it's still possible if you crank it with overdrive.

In the real world, unless you're running an 18 watt amp you're probably not going to drive the tubes into overdrive to the point that this will happen.

Regarding the OP's question, I'm not sure that fender will work well in a buffered loop. Get a wet-reverb pedal if that's what you want to do.
 

wyatt

Member
Messages
4,169
maninblack nailed it. What happens with a reverb (or anything) in front of a saturated preamp is that the amp's natural compression boosts *everything* to the exact same level, that means every single repeat of the reverb tank, no matter how faint, is cranked up and becomes over whelming.

That's why the classic '50's sound is slap-back delay. It's also the best way to liven up your sound when gigging in a "dead" room(no natural reverb). It's *one* repeat, so if it's boosted by preamp compression, it doesn't get out of hand. That's also why just about every famous rock god of the '70's used echo or delay in front of the amp live...Jeff Beck, Mick Ronson, etc. (Neil Young being the big exception).

Outside of the living room, reverb units are best used as an overt effect, a la surf music (clean amp, no worries of compression) or that super wet cliché Chicago Blues tone (not that dirty either). Otherwise, it's always made live sounds too wet (unfortunately, players never know how bad in can be for the audience) and in studio its better to mix the verb in when mixing.
 

neu18

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
717
I've found sort of a solution.

I can use the two outputs on my delay to blend the channels.

On one output of the delay I can add reverb and blend it into the quieter input.

I can put the other output of the delay into the other input for distorted tone (without reverb) and not get an over-saturated reverb sound.

You do get some bleed through the channels as you turn the volume up though.
 




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