Rock vs Jazz.

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by Tag, Mar 10, 2018.


  1. Average Joe

    Average Joe Member

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    That's because the guys you consider jazz clearly are so. No need to argue the obvious. But to deny that Sco, Metheny or Frisell are every bit the jazz players Burrell, Montgomery or Pass were isnt matter of opinion. It's just factually wrong
     
  2. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Sorry Professor. I have stated over and over again I think PM is a WONDERFUL player. One of the best all around players in the world IMO. Top 20 for sure. I do NOT think he is a fantastic Straight ahead player. Its not his strength. He does other things way better, and I think thats why he does more of those other things. Because I dont thin k he is the greatest jazz player on the planet like you do, is in NO way bashing him. Only you the big fan boy, and other PM heads jump to his "defence" because although you say you do not think jazz players are the best, freak out if your favorite player is not called one. You have tried to get me to defend GB about his disco trash, but it does not work. I AGREE. Call him a funk player, disco whatever you want. Everyone knows hes a jazz player. One of the 2 or 3 best ever. And yes, I am a fan boy of GB, Wes and Django.
     
  3. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Yep. Thats where we disagree, although I do not put Burrell there.
     
  4. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    EXACTLY.
     
  5. Average Joe

    Average Joe Member

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    Ok. Take a listen to this and explain by what parameters it is less jazz than say, pass or Montgomery. What is the yardstick?
     
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  6. bloodninja

    bloodninja Member

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    I finally heard a jazz tune I could listen to for more than a minute:

     
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  7. BriSol

    BriSol Member

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    By no reasonable yardstick. Scofield has his sound and uses some light breakup, but he hardly sounds like a rocker. His base vocabulary is essentially the jazz version of the blues + a bunch of sidestepping and outside tricks, and he swings. The drummer is swinging hard, he's got Joe Lovano on sax tearing it up, standup bass, the whole package. It isn't even remotely fusion. Just modern jazz. This is probably Scofield in his prime/best IMO.
     
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  8. StevenA

    StevenA Member

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    Is anyone taking action on the Tag vs TF cage match, and is there a spread?
     
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  9. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    And I pretty much agree, although I dont think Sco is a killer straight ahead player either, but JLovano is killing it!
     
  10. dlguitar64

    dlguitar64 Member

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    By my count, Metheny has appeared on 28 albums as a leader, co-leader, or sideman I would classify as unambiguously
    "straight ahead" by almost any standard while releasing 13 Pat Metheny Group albums (11 studio and 2 live) over 17 years,
    the last coming 13 years ago. GB is not considered a top 3 jazz player by anyone I know. Most consider him a very derivative
    player with exceptional chops who has chosen a career path of middle of the road cheesy funk instead of contributing anything
    of value to the advancement of Jazz. If he had never lived, Jazz would not be one iota different than it is today, which nobody
    can say about Metheny.
     
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  11. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    The universities the professor taught at and his name to check, Ill have a straight ahead clip up in about 30 minutes. Thats as fast as I can possibly do a take and get it up. I have posted in past threads I did not want to put any jazz clips up for about a year, but I will make an exception as well.

    I have posted so many clips here, whats the big deal? Few people have had the guts to put up some of my bad ones that were to show tone, not playing. I would use a jackhammer all morning, come home at lunch, grab my guitar, record and post it with my hands still vibrating. I would like to see even the great GB try that. :p Maybe I will post something anyway. No time, but I love playing and posting as everyone knows. :D
     
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  12. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Mike Stern does, he told me himself. :p
     
  13. Average Joe

    Average Joe Member

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    Okay then. On to Metheny, the guy you claim is jazz lite. Again, by what measure is this any lighter or less jazz than what any of your heroes would do over the same material?





    Edit to add Benson for comparison
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  14. dlguitar64

    dlguitar64 Member

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    Why would you put any stock in a "fusion" player's opinion on this matter?
     
  15. tribalfusion

    tribalfusion Member

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    This is like Tag's version of Metheny telling him that he can't play next to Benson. More of Tag's fantasy world.
     
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  16. tribalfusion

    tribalfusion Member

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    Again, the jazz authority is unwilling to play a couple of random jazz tunes to show us what a guy who feels entitled to talk trash about the heaviest jazz players on the planet actually plays like...and by extension what he is actually capable of hearing for the most part.

    I don't follow you nor do many others here I suspect. I don't want to hunt down some actual clips from you of tunes (assuming there even are any germane to the discussion in question) and I want some clips of some standard tunes right next to mine so people can go back through the thread and see you trashing Metheny and other players and contrast that with what I had to say and see who actually has a grasp on reality.

    I can't imagine how someone who plays jazz and isn't an absolute monster (and even then it wouldn't be wise or cool) could possibly DREAM of saying Metheny is a light jazz player who has been playing the same solo for 30 years.

    It's comical; Metheny was just made an NEA Jazz Master, youngest jazz prof ever at Berklee and U Miami, Newport Jazz Festival special invitee and a long list of laurels, including playing with the cream of the jazz world from Liebman and Brecker to Roy Haynes and Billy Higgins is reduced to being a clueless soft jazz player who plays the same solo for 30 years.

    I think a lot of people can guess what those who talk like this are like when it comes time to put up or shut up.


    PS - Your whining about my CV is just hot air and another waste of time; I don't owe you my CV or identity and it has no bearing on our respective ears, judgments and playing now that there will be clips right there side by side.

    Coltranemi2012 has already told you he has met me and has already told you something about my playing.

    What's more, I graciously agreed to the demand to record some clips after you and your pal insisted...on condition that you do the same. I want people to hear and see how you talk trash about high level jazz players vs how you actually play jazz yourself.
     
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  17. tribalfusion

    tribalfusion Member

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    More lies. You more than once said Metheny has been playing the same solo for 30 years and is a light jazz and even a POP player. Does that sound wonderful in regard to a jazz musician? Do we need to post the quotes?

    It's not just that you just prefer someone else to Metheny (I do too for that matter) , you say he is not a jazz player at all. After a few of us pointed out his long list of jazz accolades and honors (far in excess of any of your counterexamples by the way) and comments from cats like Liebman and Brecker calling him a genius, you finally started to say maybe it's jazz but not good jazz since he mostly plays POP and light jazz (yes you said this).

    Metheny doesn't need to be anyone's favorite player. He is simply a brilliant musician (and yes jazz is a huge part of it) regardless of preferences. Any so called jazz musician or 'expert' who can't see that needs a LOT more ear training.
     
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  18. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    You brag of being a professor at many universities but do not even have a single clip you are able to post?? I have all kinds of clips on Youtube, soundcloud and others under my ACTUAL NAME. You should not be throwing around claims like that if you can't back them. Talking about music, styles, and players is what is done on music forums. There have been plenty of threads where everyone posted takes, myself included, you could have joined in on. This thread makes no mention anywhere of myself claiming to be a better guitar player than Metheny, yourself, or any other member on here. You are making this personal, and I am biting my tongue not to respond in kind, because I am sticking around here this time. ;) I'm not taking the bait. Your trying to discredit my ear does not work. My playing is way better that it needs to be to show that. You have shown nothing. Post a clip Professor! Anything. It can't be any easier. You are making one strawman argument after the next, and fighting your own words. It's not going to work. Everyone can listen to Metheny. They already have. Are you BSing about being a professor at "Universities? You claim it over and over. Which ones?? I do not know anyone who would make that claim and not tell which ones. THAT makes zero sense. Unless you are who I think you are, which your playing will show. That would explain why you will not put a clip up. ;)
     
  19. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Point out where I said he is not a jazz player at all in context. This goes right to the point of what one calls jazz. I have said I agree he is a "modern" jazz player.
     
  20. tribalfusion

    tribalfusion Member

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    It's simple. You and your friend demanded clips and I agreed provided we play the same tunes. I want this to be extremely clear to all concerned. That's the bare minimum in terms of reciprocity or decency and the fact that you can't agree to this speaks VOLUMES.

    You are the one insisting on clips. Fine, not my style on a message board but so be it. However I am not mixing up my professional and personal life in this any more than is necessary.

    You have already been told that this is my only account and another poster has told you that he has met me:

    "I've heard tribalfusion play. He is a great player and I don't mean by tgp standard. I mean like a higher standard"

    If you need actual confirmation from coltranemi2012 that I am not whoever your fantasy has you thinking I am, you can ask him but that is the last we are speaking of this.

    It's increasingly obvious that you are looking for any way to save face.
     
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