rockett archer ikon

Discussion in 'Effects, Pedals, Strings & Things' started by ndtealmusic, Jun 13, 2015.

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  1. jnepo1

    jnepo1 Silver Supporting Member

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    Yeah, that was an interesting take on their relationship. After all, it was Finnigan's baby, why would you think he would change it because you want to see these changes made? It seems contradictory that was said and then the Archer/Ikon are released. Homage by taking sales away from a man that you just took his design from after direct inside knowledge of his pedal. I do like the Archer and also purchased the Ikon, I just don't like the fact that they sort of threw Bill F under the bus like that. Calling him out was unnecessary whether he is a difficult guy or not, it is still his design.

    I am a fan of JRAD.
     
  2. pugwash

    pugwash Member

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    it is still his design...

    It was...
    Not any more.
    I've ordered one of each, much prefer the smaller enclosure.

    mike
     
  3. Classic09

    Classic09 Member

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    JRAD have said that Bill F would not compromise. How is that calling him out or throwing him under the bus?

    If I'm the proprietor and want to build something, isn't it my call how it's built, which materials are used and the value of part tolerances?

    It seems to me that Bill F wanted units that were to very specific tolerances, which pushes the build costs upwards and decreases the builders profit margin.

    What JRAD are admitting is they were unwilling to take a hit on profit so decided to make a version of the pedal which met a certain price point than quality point.

    FWIW, I own an Archer and am very happy with it.
     
  4. Finnegan/Klon

    Finnegan/Klon Member

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    Hi guys -

    Someone has let me know about this new purported Klon clone, and about the claims being made in order to market it.

    Here are several things for your consideration:

    First, Pro Guitar Shop has supposedly acquired one of my Klon Centaur units (and a gold one!) that they claim sounds better than any other? How many of my Centaurs do you suppose they have seen and have been able to listen to and evaluate? Here's how many I myself have listened to and evaluated: more than 7000 of them, which is to say, every single one of them, from the time I began hand-building Centaurs in late 1994 until the time I stopped hand-building them in late spring/early summer 2010 (I stopped accepting orders for the unit in late 2009, and it took me 4-5 months to work through the backlog of orders). Also, please note that I listened to and evaluated every single one of those Centaur boards twice - the first time on my testing jig as a populated board, and then of course afterward in the fully-built unit, before that unit was boxed and shipped. Throughout those fifteen years of production I worked extremely hard to make my units consistent sonically, so I would question the assertion that PGS have somehow acquired some kind of super-special Centaur - even if such a thing exists, how would they know they had one?

    Second, if this new purported clone unit really does have the correct NOS clipping diodes (ad copy: "That's right - THE part"), then why would the people behind it need to "fine tune the circuit" to get whatever they originally got in the way of sonic results to sound like my own sonic results - or, for that matter - even close to my own sonic results? In all the years Klon units have been built and sold - more than twenty years now - I have never measured and/or matched pairs of production diodes for forward voltage drop (FVD tells you essentially nothing about what a diode sounds like when it's clipping) or for any other spec; after their leads have been hand-bent, the diodes have always just been installed in Centaur boards (by me, personally) or now in KTR boards (by someone at an electronics contract manufacturing firm) without any testing whatsoever, aside from a momentary look - does-this-glass-diode-appear-to-be-broken-or-otherwise-compromised? As noted below, the NOS diodes I have always used simply sound better in my circuit than any of the many, many other diodes I have acquired good-sized sample quantities of for evaluation over the years (typically a minimum of 50-100 diodes).

    Third, it's kind of ridiculous for these people to boast that they know the "actual value" of the NOS diode I have always used. If - as seems to be the case - they are unfamiliar with even the nomenclature, and if in fact what they are referring to is simply its part number, then I have to point out that this bit of info has been widely known ever since a Centaur unit was purchased used in the summer of 2007 for the purpose of reverse-engineering it, and the resulting information put online for anyone to see shortly thereafter. The diode I have always used is a germanium diode with the part number 1N34A, but you should understand that this particular part has since the 1950s or so been manufactured by literally hundreds of different companies, and having listened to as many different ones as I have, I can say with confidence that they all sound somewhat different in my circuit, and often they sound VERY different.
     
  5. Finnegan/Klon

    Finnegan/Klon Member

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    Lastly, for the record (yet again), I myself have never referred to the NOS clipping diodes I have used from the very beginning in my Centaur and KTR units as "magic" or anything even remotely like that - it's always been other people who have done so (usually with some snark, which I suppose is understandable). Here is what I wrote about the diodes in my TGP post dated 1/25/12:

    "The new unit will have the exact same NOS germanium diodes that I used throughout the fifteen years of Centaur production. I'm aware that a number of people over the years have made snide remarks about what they've tended to refer to as the "magic" diodes, and stated that they can't hear a difference between these and whatever diodes the various would-be cloners use, so here's what I've said on the subject many times and will now say yet again: I have never considered this particular diode (a specific part from a specific manufacturer, back when they were still making it) to be "magic" in any way - I simply consider it, after a ton of listening to every possible substitute, to be the best-sounding diode in my circuit, a circuit that I and my two design partners (successively) worked on for four-and-a-half years and that I understand from the inside-out, in a way that I have a hard time imagining any of the would-be cloners could. This diode may well sound not-so-good in any number of other overdrive or distortion circuits (it's not "magic", remember?), but my long-held, and always self-challenged, opinion is that thus far it is clearly the best-sounding one - and by a not-inconsiderable margin - in my circuit. To those people who claim not to be able to hear a difference between what it has to offer and what other diodes have to offer in my circuit, my question is a simple one: REALLY?"

    Certainly I'll be interested to find out whether or not these people have in fact acquired a small stock of the correct NOS diode, but even if they have, for various reasons it seems doubtful to me that their pedal incorporating those will sound all that much like a real Klon unit.

    Take care,
    Bill Finnegan
    Klon LLC
     
  6. jnepo1

    jnepo1 Silver Supporting Member

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    Why would he compromise his design after all these years. It's his baby and for JRAD to ask him to do so, it's really not their place to tell him that. It's one thing to suggest rather then demand if this is the case. There was no need to say he was difficult to work with especially since you are contracted to build his design.
     
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  7. jnepo1

    jnepo1 Silver Supporting Member

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    Thanks for chiming in Bill F.
     
  8. tonewave

    tonewave Member

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    thanks Bill,
    Bjorn Juhl says the same thing, there are no magic parts,
    just the right parts to create a certain desired sound or characteristic
    there is no such thing as a mojo part it seems...
     
  9. Classic09

    Classic09 Member

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    That's exactly my point: why would or should Bill compromise!

    It's not unreasonable for a builder to ask the question of compromise but the proprietor always has the final decision.
     
  10. jAcKoFsPeEd

    jAcKoFsPeEd Member

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    They started shipping yesterday.......
     
  11. pugwash

    pugwash Member

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    Allelujah!!
    Looking forward to mine :-D
     
  12. daveg777

    daveg777 Member

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    Excellent video, thanks for posting this.

    DWG
     
  13. zastruga

    zastruga Member

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    Humor me... If they did in fact find the correct diodes, why wouldn't it sound much like a real Klon? I have a KTR and several clones and the differences are miniscule at best, I can't imagine how with the correct parts there would be THAT much difference. Even the Soul Food does a pretty good approximation of the KTR within certain ranges, and it's clearly far from correct part/value-wise.

    Please don't mistake this for attacking you in any way, I am obviously a lay-person when it comes to electronics and my big fat F's in my freshman Electrical Engineering courses can attest to that :D, but I am genuinely interested in what you think makes these pedals sound different, ridiculous ad-copy aside.
     
  14. ChampReverb

    ChampReverb Silver Supporting Member

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    Yes, thank you Bill.

    It's refreshing and illuminating to hear your view in the midst of this latest chapter in Klonsanity.

    -bEn r.
     
  15. Classic09

    Classic09 Member

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    Shawn states the difference between the two models are subtle. I'm interested to know just how 'subtle' the differences are between the Archer and the Archer Ikon.
     
  16. Dunzie

    Dunzie Member

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    I wasn't privy to any of the goings-on between the Rockett fellas and Mr Finnegan and quite frankly don't care to get involved or weigh in interpreting or analyzing that since I wasn't. The stories are no doubt going to be different, as often conflicting dealings lead to be...

    Having said that, the Archer is an outstanding drive pedal, and I've played a ton of K-inspired drive pedals, including the KTR. The only inherent weakness comparatively to the Arc Klone v2 in particular is the pedal's ability to run as a zero-gain clean boost, where the Arc shines, and I think also the KTR was better. Again, it appears the Ikon Archer has to some extent addressed this, although with due props to Mr Tubbs and his outstanding skill, his demo can't begin to demonstrate fully for me as his amp is not in the realm of my amp in terms of "clean tone". Time will tell...
     
  17. Hiwhat

    Hiwhat Member

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    The video demo by Shawn Tubbs is nicely done. I still want to point out that you CAN crank the gain control on the original Centaur, just as you can on the Archer. To say that the Rockett version is much more controlled in this setting...well, I A/B`d them and did not notice that at all. Anyway, I really love the gain sound of the Centaur. Even on a clean amp like a Hiwatt or so....
     
  18. ELmiguel

    ELmiguel Member

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    Regarding Rockett pedals.

    Marketing 101: Copy someone else's product and call it as good or better than the original. Get as many buddies as you can claiming how great it is. Advertise. Cover up your own manufacturing screw-ups by claiming they were intentional. When sales slow down, create version #2. Paint it a different color and put a different diode in it. NOW claim it is as good or better than the original one you copied AND better than the first copy you made.

    Had Bill F. made the original Klon in 5 different colors, Rockett could keep doing this for years. And all of their TGP fans would keep buying them AND claim they hear the difference.
     
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  19. jAcKoFsPeEd

    jAcKoFsPeEd Member

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  20. NewDr.P

    NewDr.P Member

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    i read on the internet this was the dirt pedal andy was really playing in his famous pickless rendition of spoonman by soundgarden. that alone is worth $200.

    if it werent for its association with a salesman's demos to sell me things i probably couldnt see paying $200 for a distortion pedal. im a huge fan.
     
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