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Scales?? Pretty much useless for improvising well.

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mc1

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i can't read all of this thread, so i will no doubt repeat that scales are a bit like letters. in and of themselves, not good for a whole lot, but the building blocks of most music. they are also a way of analyzing music after the fact.

and to the op, i bet you use that chromatic scale. don't you?
 

mc1

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Don't you start 'n all mc!!!!!
it's a little too late for that now, so let's just plow right on through here...

seems to me, unless you just play a single note (monoscale?), you are using a scale. even an interval could be considered a two note scale (duoscale?). i think b.b. king uses that one, sometimes the triscale.


yes. completely ruined a good star trek moment.

how about we shut this thing down and go do music instead of talk about it? and let the music speak for itself....
.....tell us how that goes.....
... it goes a little something like this (cue funky beat) ...
 

mike walker

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it's a little too late for that now, so let's just plow right on through here...

seems to me, unless you just play a single note (monoscale?), you are using a scale. even an interval could be considered a two note scale (duoscale?). i think b.b. king uses that one, sometimes the triscale.
Yep.... we covered this angle from every which way, mc.

But it throws up other interesting stuff from time to time, so stick around and maybe we'll meet in a parallel reality.
 

mc1

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Yep.... we covered this angle from every which way, mc.

But it throws up other interesting stuff from time to time, so stick around and maybe we'll meet in a parallel reality.

i've been avoiding this thread, and now i can't bear to read the whole thing. but if you want to summarize it for me, that would be most helpful.

while i haven't read the thread, i perhaps can understand tag's point.

anyway, i better return to my 'sophisticated wanking' project.
 

vhollund

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So you missed the 5 pages from 31 to 36 where we talked about you?

Some people got really angry at one point and called you a coward for not responding to th allegations.

;)
 

mc1

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lol. can you summarize what you wrote? (please be gentle).

but to stay marginally on topic, it's like you wrote above, a scale is a collection of notes that help to organize them into more meaningful groups.

i think part of the problem is always playing them up and down, one note to the next, rather than using different intervals.
 

Tag

Platinum Supporting Member
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Faculty Biography



Richie Hart

Title: Associate Professor *
Department: Guitar

"Teaching is what helps to perpetuate music. I teach students exactly the way classical musicians have been taught for the past 400 years or so: by learning pieces of music. Discipline is very important—you have to put the work in. As students learn a piece of music, they learn the techniques, tools, and skills needed to play that piece.
"My philosophy is that you first study the masters, then evolve into your own style. It's a multistage process of learning the vocabulary and what the masters did with it. The next part is to dig inside themselves and find out how to create their own sounds through the vocabulary of jazz—not to try to reinvent the vocabulary, but use it to invent new things.
"Because jazz music is played primarily by ear, I train students' ears to hear the vocabulary at a higher level, then learn to read. It's exactly the way human beings learn language: they learn how to speak first, and then learn how to read and write. I'd been teaching this way for years, before I heard about the Suzuki method, which uses the same approach to teach music to young children.
 
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"As students learn a piece of music, they learn the techniques, tools, and skills needed to play that piece."

Wouldn't that include a host of etudes, scales, arpeggios, etc.?
 

mc1

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i suspect that musicans have been learning scales for more than 400 years, and that mr. hart know lots and lots of them.

but his point doesn't seem to be about learning pieces rather than scales, it seems to be about listening before reading.
 

mc1

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"As students learn a piece of music, they learn the techniques, tools, and skills needed to play that piece."

Wouldn't that include a host of etudes, scales, arpeggios, etc.?
i guess i'll go the other way now...

the answer, arthur, is no. if you play 2 consecutive notes from a scale you aren't making music, you are practicing technical skills that will only impede you later.
 

mike walker

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4,153
Summary...

Scales are useless.

No they ain't.

Yes they are.

small break for ride by rude boys.

Better to learn stuff.

Yeah, but that stuff comes from scales.....

Not if ya Benson....he knows not the scale to which you refer, sir!

Maybe not the name, but sure as hell knows the fingerings like a fothermucker.....

you banjo....

hey, less of it... (mods)

Yada yada (ride by rude boys)

Think about the implications of what you are saying (Aloysius)

But i already said that.... (Josephus)

This thread is like etc etc etc

I prefer to play with chord tones and intervals....

But they come from scales,

Yes but....

Listen to this, then,

that sounds like ****

oy.... pack it in....(mods)

Just coz you're a big ****

Right that's enough Taggers....red card.... sin bin 7 days....(mods)

Tag, walking away ' first i was afraid, i was petrified'

Kirk to ship.......

'Spock'

'Yes, Captain'

'relay this to Bones'

'Go ahead Captain"

'Scales are use.....'

'Captain!!? Captain!!?'


So mc....... that's about it, ya foller?
 

mc1

Member
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323
Summary...

Scales are useless.

No they ain't.

...

So mc....... that's about it, ya foller?
thanks for the excellent summary, mike, i owe you a couple of hours.

and, having read it, i concur that scales are indeed useless.

on the more serious side, here are a few more of my thoughts.

obviously the music came first and then later the scales used were recognized. it's a bit like the taxonomy of plants and animals. giving them a name and classifying them doesn't help to understand them or shed any useful light on them. similarly in music, the taxonomy of scales comes after the fact as people study the notes used. so while i can scat sing like jimi hendrix on caffeinated acid and not really have any idea what i sang, i might like to go back and figure out the notes i used if a particular part stuck out. it also helps to remember it in terms of scales or notes against a harmony. this helps me to replicate (or avoid) certain sounds.

knowing scales and similar terminology helps musicians communicate. if they didn't, we would just sing our progressions or modes or tonalities instead. also, the practice of scales is both a purely technical exercise to gain motor facility as well as ear training ability. so perhaps overhyped, but definitely not useless.

having said all that, i think the greats learn scales as part of their growth, but if they reach a certain level they can basically forget about it and just play whatever comes into their head.
 

KRosser

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14,255
The problem is that "scale" is not suppose to work over that chord, yet it does.
I really don't understand this Tag, it's a self-contradictory statement.

If the notes of that scale, rearranged or broken up into a melody, work over that chord for your ears, then that scale does work over that chord. Where does the "not supposed to" come in?

Who said "that scale doesn't work over that chord", exactly?

Whoever it is, your issue is with him, not with me.

And also, there are many other "scales" I can say those notes came from. Its a melodic line that works. The notes can be analyzed many different ways.
Sure. Scales associations being one of them.

I did not play a mixolydian scale.
Sure you did. Every note of that melody was in the mixolydian scale with an additional chromatic approach note.

Sure. There are a lot of scales you can use. But unless you are mixing them and playing melodic lines, you are going to sound very basic and boring pretty quickly.
Is Miles Davis' solo on "So What" basic and boring? Just curious. The whole two-chorus solo is entirely within two dorian modes with a couple passing tones.


I did, and I really didnt. I agree you can get to the end point in many ways. My entire first post was not aimed at guys who had already gone through it all.
You didn't qualify it that way at all, you said they were useless from the very beginning

Its for guys who are stuck trying to learn jazz and spending lots of time learning all the different scales and modes, and trying to run them.
You didn't say that either, you said they were useless for everyone. Most people aren't trying to learn to play jazz anyway.

Learning scales is about learning the mechanics of your instrument.

Learning music, jazz or otherwise, is something else entirely


Many guys do this for years and years and never learn the language. Then there are simply players. They do not know any, or very much theory, but they can play the snot out of their instrument. They simply skipped all the BS, copied the LANGUAGE first (just like a little kid learning to speak) and went of running with it. IMO, a combination of the 2 is the best bet,
Exactly, meaning they're not useless.
 
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