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Scales?? Pretty much useless for improvising well.

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splatt

david torn / splattercell
Platinum Supporting Member
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26,685
Hey Dave!
Totally agree there is no one way. A million roads will bring you to the same end. Yes, Richie changed his thinking way back then, but he is a total master now, and has not changed his approach again in 30 years or more after studying with GB. Just more food for thought.
dig.
i haven't altered my approach much, either, since i was a kid
though it certainly appears to continue altering me.
ha!
maybe not so funny, but.
dude.
dt / spltrcl
 

KRosser

Member
Messages
14,255
Ken,
I saw a post before but cant find it now where you said you were mainly a reading instructor at GIT.
Mainly - not exclusively. I do teach jazz improvisation to private students, teach some of those techniques in my own fingerboard harmony classes, and I often sub for Sid Jacobs in his "Jazz Guitar" class, where idiomatic jazz improvisation is the whole enchilada.

I erased the line you were looking for as it wasn't pertinent to the point I was making.

Clearly, you're not wavering on this point and that's OK. I never expected to change your mind.

I just came in here to say, I vehemently disagree - I find them very useful, and I recommend the study of scales - both on the instrument and off - as part of a well-rounded musical approach to anyone who ever cares to ask my opinion.

And if Richie Hart was here, I betcha I could get him to agree there's more to music than blowing jazz lines, and that scale knowledge might be useful for a whole bunch of it
 
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mike walker

Member
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4,153
Ken,
I saw a post before but cant find it now where you said you were mainly a reading instructor at GIT. Thats probably a lot of the diffrence. Richie is a jazz performance teacher, so thats how he comes at it. I first started taking lessons from him when he was very young, and I was a freshman at Ramapo college. At that point, he taught all scales and arpeggios, and everything they worked over exactly like just about every other teacher you see. I left there to go to a different school, and it was not until several years later that I hooked up with him again for private instruction. I believe those were the years he studied with George, and it changed his entire approach to teaching. He had me close the books, and EVERYTHING was listening and learning by ear. Everything. I turned a friend on to him several years later, (dead head player) and in a matter of months he had the guy playing jazz at an incredible level for that amount of time. The guy was improvising very nicely, and just starting to learn what the names of some of the scales and things he was doing were. (Instead of the other way around) Its a very different method compared to mainstream, (Dominant, tonic) and all I can say is it made my playing come together at 5 times the rate i was moving at previously. He actually got me to hear music in an entirely different manner, (correctly) and one that made even the most complex things seem fairly simple, or at least learnable. I still do not have the time to become a great player, but with the limited time I have to practice, I get a LOT out of it, and I am a better player than I should be. I can hear almost everything as well. Thats about 99% of it anyway. Thanks Richie! :aok
Tag,

This is the point for me. This has a more personal vibe to it. This is not
such a universal statement.

It feels more like 'for me, it's best to go with your ear first, then get into scales later'.
This is exactly how i did it. In fact, it's probably how a lot of people did it.

Time came when i needed (for me) to find out more. Dig deeper. So i did.

And i learned my fretboard inside out. Using Scales and everything that comes from them.

I didn't learn the arpeggio first, or the interval first, or the lick first.

I wanted to know from where those things came from. The spring, so to speak. The Scale.

This meant, when i checked out a Benson solo, i wasn't tied just to the shape of what he played.
I saw it, as part of a bigger whole.

That, for me, is what the whole scale thing hinges on, coupled with it's sound, of course.
 
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mc1

Member
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323
tag, perhaps early on you put too high an expectation upon what scales could do for you, and then you realized they weren't as important as you once did, and now the pendulum has swung the other way...

just the fact that we can understand this concept - 'try playing an A mixolydian b6 scale over an Am7b5 chord' - clearly demonstrates a practical use of scales.
 
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Tag

Platinum Supporting Member
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43,294
:p
Mainly - not exclusively. I do teach jazz improvisation to private students, teach some of those techniques in my own fingerboard harmony classes, and I often sub for Sid Jacobs in his "Jazz Guitar" class, where idiomatic jazz improvisation is the whole enchilada.

I erased the line you were looking for as it wasn't pertinent to the point I was making.

Clearly, you're not wavering on this point and that's OK. I never expected to change your mind.

I just came in here to say, I vehemently disagree - I find them very useful, and I recommend the study of scales - both on the instrument and off - as part of a well-rounded musical approach to anyone who ever cares to ask my opinion.

And if Richie Hart was here, I betcha I could get him to agree there's more to music than blowing jazz lines, and that scale knowledge might be useful for a whole bunch of it
We are pretty much on the same page then. It was your ignoring post#7 that kept the argument going. :puh By that post, my thoughts were totally put into context I thought. Still, tell GB to run a mixo#11 scale without thinking about it. Its not going to happen, and NO ONE needs to know that to play jazz at world class levels.
 

vhollund

Member
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3,549
:p

We are pretty much on the same page then. It was your ignoring post#7 that kept the argument going. :puh By that post, my thoughts were totally put into context I thought. Still, tell GB to run a mixo#11 scale without thinking about it. Its not going to happen, and NO ONE needs to know that to play jazz at world class levels.
Chick Corea knows it.
He plays it all the time and it works great.
 

Krish

Member
Messages
108
I love Benson like crazy, but I dont even think hed be my ideal guy to base my playing off of.

his style is ,in a way, very antiquated now. His approach will only help you with the bebop/straight ahead jazz portion of the genre.

Guys like Rosenwinkel, Hekselman, Kreisberg, Rogers, etc.... they are carrying the genre even further. (not to mention all the guys before them.. Frisell, Abercrombie, Sco, etc)

there is so much more to music and jazz, other than "good bebop lines" -

When I listen to Kurt Rosenwinkel, I hear mastery of jazz guitar without relying on a million quotes or transcribed lines to get his point across. Its all him. His own voice. that he discovered through his own explorations. And he doesnt sound like a greased up version of Wes Montgomery.

If you want to sound like a good bebop player pre 1970, then maybe Benson is the guy for you.

but there is SO MUCH TO learn outside of just transcribing bop lines.
 

Tag

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43,294
I love Benson like crazy, but I dont even think hed be my ideal guy to base my playing off of.

his style is ,in a way, very antiquated now.
Your kidding right? I guess if you like rock/jazz/fusion.


Guys like Rosenwinkel, Hekselman, Kreisberg, Rogers, etc.... they are carrying the genre even further. (not to mention all the guys before them.. Frisell, Abercrombie, Sco, etc)
Thats a joke IMO. Benson destroys them.


There is so much more to music and jazz, other than "good bebop lines" -
Agree, but thats one of the best ways to learn little melodies and how to connect them.

When I listen to Kurt Rosenwinkel, I hear mastery of jazz guitar without relying on a million quotes or transcribed lines to get his point across.
I hear a mid level jazz player, pretty cool fusion player.



Its all him. His own voice. that he discovered through his own explorations.
Agree he has a unique style which is great, IF you like his style. I dont. Different does not mean good.


And he doesnt sound like a greased up version of Wes Montgomery.
Not at all. He has no blues emotion which is the basis of jazz. :cry:


If you want to sound like a good bebop player pre 1970, then maybe Benson is the guy for you.
Surely not Kurt!

but there is SO MUCH TO learn outside of just transcribing bop lines
Agree.
 

mike walker

Member
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4,153
I love Benson like crazy, but I dont even think hed be my ideal guy to base my playing off of.

his style is ,in a way, very antiquated now. His approach will only help you with the bebop/straight ahead jazz portion of the genre.

Guys like Rosenwinkel, Hekselman, Kreisberg, Rogers, etc.... they are carrying the genre even further. (not to mention all the guys before them.. Frisell, Abercrombie, Sco, etc)

there is so much more to music and jazz, other than "good bebop lines" -

When I listen to Kurt Rosenwinkel, I hear mastery of jazz guitar without relying on a million quotes or transcribed lines to get his point across. Its all him. His own voice. that he discovered through his own explorations. And he doesnt sound like a greased up version of Wes Montgomery.

If you want to sound like a good bebop player pre 1970, then maybe Benson is the guy for you.

but there is SO MUCH TO learn outside of just transcribing bop lines.
The vocab is a little dated, i agree, but so is parker, louis armstrong, clifford brown, etc etc. The killer thing for me, with all those guys, is the feel. It's burning.
 

Echoes

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6,218
The vocab is a little dated, i agree, but so is parker, louis armstrong, clifford brown, etc etc. The killer thing for me, with all those guys, is the feel. It's burning.
yep....exact-a-mundo.

music to me is more about the attitude and passion than the damned notes, chords, scales, licks, arps bla bla bla...really who on earth cares? there must come a time when the student also becomes the performer then the master...
 

JohnM

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706
Not at all. He has no blues emotion which is the basis of jazz. :cry:
This is really an opinion-based statement. What law states that jazz players have to play blues licks? Kudos to guys like Rosenwinkle for pushing the genre past the old standards. His playing has great feel and phrasing, just not the same as the old standbys. There are many flavors of 'jazz'...not just altered lines mixed with pentatonic licks.

I love Benson too but he's a totally different player - Benson's approach (IMO) is more dominant and overbearing...(I hate to say the word, but) 'Show-Off'-ish...showboaty? whereas some of the new guys have a more understated 'meld into the group' sort of style...more introspective and probing musically. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy both, for different reasons.

Not everyone is going to play like Benson or Kurt...and it doesn't make either any less valid as jazz players. To imply that is silly.

Of course, opinions are like bebop lines...everybody has at least one...
 

Krish

Member
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108
Not everyone is going to play like Benson or Kurt...and it doesn't make either any less valid as jazz players. To imply that is silly.

Of course, opinions are like bebop lines...everybody has at least one...
Thankfully, im a huge fan of both, so ill try to learn as much as i can from BOTH. :D

they both have so much to offer that itd be stupid to put one "above" the other.
 

Tag

Platinum Supporting Member
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43,294
This is really an opinion-based statement. What law states that jazz players have to play blues licks? Kudos to guys like Rosenwinkle for pushing the genre past the old standards. ...
Pushing nothing IMO. He nevered mastered jazz so he went a different route. Nothing wrong with that, but in a straight ahead jazz setting with straight ahead players, he is going to get his arse handed to him. :dude
 

JohnM

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in a straight ahead jazz setting with straight ahead players, he is going to get his arse handed to him. :dude
I think you need to learn a bit more about Kurt's abilities before making a statement (assumption) like that...


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JohnM

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706
If anyone could 'hand your ass to you' on guitar, Eddy Palermo would be one of those guys...I'd say Kurt holds his own (did I hear a blues lick?) Smooth, hip stuff in there for sure along with the old-school 'licks'.

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Krish

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Pushing nothing IMO. He nevered mastered jazz so he went a different route. Nothing wrong with that, but in a straight ahead jazz setting with straight ahead players, he is going to get his arse handed to him. :dude
You obviously havent heard his new standards album. (or much of his playing at all)

Depth on an entirely different level then flashy benson licks.

he chose not to be a copycat of those who came before him, and i really admire him for that.
 

dlguitar64

Senior Member
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5,606
I am amazed that Tag never mentions that Benson is one of the biggest "sellouts" in the history of jazz-he basically invented smooth jazz right?His 60s recordings are great but he has never developed beyond that in my opinion.
 

guitarjazz

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Thankfully, im a huge fan of both, so ill try to learn as much as i can from BOTH. :D

they both have so much to offer that itd be stupid to put one "above" the other.
Agreed. This (thread) is starting to reminded me of the (verbal) fight in the junior high bathroom about who was better, Clapton or Harrison. We grow up and realize how silly the initial premise is.
 
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