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Scales?? Pretty much useless for improvising well.

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rob2001

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Back to scales....we NEED to find out if they are totally useless, 50% useless, or only moderately useless when improvising.
 

mc1

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323
they could be totally useless 50% of the time and 100% useful 50% of the time.

but, it's time to lock this one down and start part 2. wow.
 

KRosser

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:p

We are pretty much on the same page then. It was your ignoring post#7 that kept the argument going. :puh
Well, post #7 is where you contradicted your OP, so I was waiting to see which one you decided on.

By that post, my thoughts were totally put into context I thought.
Even in that context, I vehemently disagree, myself.

Still, tell GB to run a mixo#11 scale without thinking about it. Its not going to happen,
Nah...I don't believe it. And you don't know that for a fact. All you have is second-hand conjecture.

and NO ONE needs to know that to play jazz at world class levels.
Maybe so, but some people have higher musical ambitions than that, which is where a more thorough background might come in handy.
 

Flyin' Brian

Silver Supporting Member
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30,298
Thats better, but still. :messedup Where is the feel, where is the emotional content?
Just because it's not there for you Tag doesn't mean that it's not there.

The emotional "high" that we get from any type of music is absolutely and completely personal. Therefore wouldn't it it perhaps be better for you to say that "There's no emotional content in that for me" rather than to say "where is the emotional content?"

I have seen people get driven to tears by a Michael Bolton performance which does nothing for me in any way.

I think that it would be self serving for me to categorically say that "there is no emotional content in a Michael Bolton performance". I could simply alter that statement and say "For me there is no emotional content in a Michael Bolton performance and be much closer to the truth than I would be by making a blanket statement in which I'm holding myself out as some kind of authority.

So translating that further, one could safely say "scales??? useless for me".
 

BuddyGuit

Silver Supporting Member
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3,100
:p
Still, tell GB to run a mixo#11 scale without thinking about it. Its not going to happen, and NO ONE needs to know that to play jazz at world class levels.

George came up in a different era. No schools not as many to hang with etc. With all the educational opportunities available now. Knowing theory (scales included) is just a matter of course. Although, IMHO with all the players out there there are still not that many that play on the level of Benson, Rosenwinkle and some others.

And again George may not know the name but he knows the scale.
 

StevenA

Senior Member
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Tag,

Seriously - check this out. Jazz. Swinging like nobody's biz.

This is modern straight ahead - this is *not* fusion. And this is decidedly *not* intermediate.

I have to agree with Tag on this one.
The entire solo sounded the same, to me, from the beginning to the end. I had no idea what the tune was about, where one chorus began and one ended. I got the feeling an average jazz piano player could play KR's solo with just the right hand and yawn with the left.
Give me Pass, Montgomery, and Benson any day. Yes, even from 50 years ago.
 

mc1

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323
:p
... Still, tell GB to run a mixo#11 scale without thinking about it. Its not going to happen, and NO ONE needs to know that to play jazz at world class levels.
...
And again George may not know the name but he knows the scale.
as buddyguit notes, of course gb knows this scale, and anyone who is at a world class level of jazz knows it (which isn't to say that anyone who knows it is at a world class level of jazz). gb could run it up and down without a second thought.

or did you mean the name? is your whole point that jazz musicians don't need to know the names of the scales they use?
 

JohnM

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706
I have to agree with Tag on this one.
The entire solo sounded the same, to me, from the beginning to the end. I had no idea what the tune was about, where one chorus began and one ended. I got the feeling an average jazz piano player could play KR's solo with just the right hand and yawn with the left.
Give me Pass, Montgomery, and Benson any day. Yes, even from 50 years ago.
Are you familiar with the tune? (Inner Urge) It IS from 50 years ago. (ok about 45 yrs) Check out the Joe Henderson version (original), then listen to Kurt's interpretation of it. It's all about putting your own stamp on a standard piece of the repertoire. I think listening from a different perspective can really change how you judge something musically. Not saying you'll like it any more/less but for the sake of have some perspective on the discussion...
 

purestmonk

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631
I have to agree with Tag on this one.
The entire solo sounded the same, to me, from the beginning to the end. I had no idea what the tune was about, where one chorus began and one ended. I got the feeling an average jazz piano player could play KR's solo with just the right hand and yawn with the left.
Give me Pass, Montgomery, and Benson any day. Yes, even from 50 years ago.
Have you had the opportunity to shed this tune inside out?

IMO, Part of jazz is not just making changes clear and distinct. Alot can be about blurring of bar-lines and harmonic displacement.

Not understanding it doesnt equate to that performed art being mediocre

peace
 

RichardB

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1,334
as buddyguit notes, of course gb knows this scale, and anyone who is at a world class level of jazz knows it (which isn't to say that anyone who knows it is at a world class level of jazz). gb could run it up and down without a second thought.

or did you mean the name? is your whole point that jazz musicians don't need to know the names of the scales they use?
I have to disagree. I honestly don't think GB knows that scale to be able to run it...And believe me, I know GB backwards.
GB's "system" is derived mostly from chord tones, major scale and pentatonic stuff. He has no symmetrical stuff. No modern rhythmic stuff, and he couldn't function in the modern jazz idiom as it stands today.
 

RichardB

Senior Member
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1,334
I have to agree with Tag on this one.
The entire solo sounded the same, to me, from the beginning to the end. I had no idea what the tune was about, where one chorus began and one ended. I got the feeling an average jazz piano player could play KR's solo with just the right hand and yawn with the left.
Give me Pass, Montgomery, and Benson any day. Yes, even from 50 years ago.
I suspect you dont know that tune then, because KR was playing it in the most intense, logical and developmental way.

For anyone who cares to notice, notice that KR manages many choruses without repeating himself, and he keeps on finding fresh ideas that organically flow from one chorus to the next.
INCREDIBLE musician, that GB would be in AWE of.
 

russ6100

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4,642
I suspect you dont know that tune then, because KR was playing it in the most intense, logical and developmental way.

For anyone who cares to notice, notice that KR manages many choruses without repeating himself, and he keeps on finding fresh ideas that organically flow from one chorus to the next.
INCREDIBLE musician, that GB would be in AWE of.
Right.

Someone who says that each chorus sounds the same is revealing more about what they're unable to hear than anything deficient in KR's interpretation. This is a tune that I never stop shedding.
 

Tag

Platinum Supporting Member
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43,289
I have to agree with Tag on this one.
The entire solo sounded the same, to me, from the beginning to the end. I had no idea what the tune was about, where one chorus began and one ended. I got the feeling an average jazz piano player could play KR's solo with just the right hand and yawn with the left.
Give me Pass, Montgomery, and Benson any day. Yes, even from 50 years ago.
Totally agree. Snooze city. I honestly cant stand his playing. Zero emotional content IMO. He should stick to piano. He sounded more emotional on that.
 

Tag

Platinum Supporting Member
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43,289
Well, post #7 is where you contradicted your OP, so I was waiting to see which one you decided on.
Put it into perspective.



Even in that context, I vehemently disagree, myself.
No problems here.



Nah...I don't believe it. And you don't know that for a fact. All you have is second-hand conjecture.
If I find out for a FACT, will you change your view? I say he cant do it.



Maybe so, but some people have higher musical ambitions than that.
Higher than playing at the highest level? I disagree Ken. DIFFERENT ambitions yes. Higher? There is nothing higher for a musician than to play at the highetst level IMO.
 

Tag

Platinum Supporting Member
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43,289
Right.

Someone who says that each chorus sounds the same is revealing more about what they're unable to hear than anything deficient in KR's interpretation. This is a tune that I never stop shedding.
:jo

Your joking right? Because you find it interesting you think everyone else does? Yea, ok. Emotionless notes in the air IMO.
 
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