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Second Mastervolum - is it possible to build?

mary04

Member
Messages
634
Own a Divided by 13 LDW 17/39 with a matching D13 2x12 cab, and I`m very satisfied with the whole deal. I got a thick, fat, very Marshally overdrive that suits my 70-style rock n roll very well. For your information - the LDW got one channel (low/high input), a great mastervolum, and does not have a effects loop. But thats okey - I`ve always thought the loops were tone suckers.

However, when it comes to playing solos, it`s the same situation with this one as with pretty much all other amps out there - it aint got any tool for raising the volum during solos. I`ve tried about any cleanboost pedal out there, wich IMO is just adding gain, and any volum pedal, wich IMO sucks tone in the effect loop, and doesent work proper in the input in front. Its just like setting the guitar volum on half, and thats not my way of playing guitar. I need balls and crunch all the time (Rose Tatto, 70s acdc, Free, ZZ top, Airbourne, etc).

I know that the Diezel Einstein, Elmwood Modena, Mesa Boogies, some Bogners, and probably one or two other amps have the dual footswitchable volumsettingsystem. In other words - they got two mastervolums on the amp. I`ve heard they work just wonderful, giving the player the options to have exactley the same tone at two different volumlevels.

I`m no tech, so my questions are: anyone of you know if there`s possible to make a second mastervolum on my LDW, and if that is so - anyone got any schematics they could pass on?

I would also like to hear opinions on the matter if you got one. Maybe you pass me an idea I havent tried or tought on yet.

And for the record - I`ve tried the Ultimate Attenuator with the dual volumsettings. Altough its probably the best attenuator out there, it took some sparkle and fatness away from the amp. And I cant live with that!

Mary
 

CDA

Indigenous Donkey
Messages
349
Wow, 150 bucks for an effects loop. I need to raise my prices....
 

Keyser Soze

Member
Messages
1,472
(Take this suggestion for what it's worth - cheap, and easy)

Try turning your guitar's volume pot down to about 7-8, then re-eq your amp for your desired regular playing tone.

If this can be accomplished (sometimes it can't) then 'guitar on 10' has just become your lead tone.

Although if the amp is really compressing then you might not get a huge amount of volume, just more thickness. I suspect this is one of the reasons people like Angus Young run more stacks, but at half volume.
 

CDA

Indigenous Donkey
Messages
349
Nice first post Adam.

What exactly does your effects loop consist of?

Mine has input level control, output level control, a mix that goes from straight series, to as much of a wet/dry parallel mix as you want, and a true bypass switch.

If you're adding all those features to an amp, Drilling holes for 4 controls, and 2 input output jacks, Patching into the amps original signal chain, and power supply, and taking the time to do a nice clean job, and you're not charging AT LEAST $150, you're not WORKING on amps, you're feeding your hobby, by experimenting on other peoples stuff.

If you're simply installing a non buffered insert before the phase inverter... sure. But that's not really an effects loop IMO.

Jade
Post count = technical capability!

Really, what you're doing isn't complex. And again, I should raise my prices.

Post # 6 I'm getting better.....
 

hasserl

Member
Messages
4,708
(Take this suggestion for what it's worth - cheap, and easy)

Try turning your guitar's volume pot down to about 7-8, then re-eq your amp for your desired regular playing tone.

If this can be accomplished (sometimes it can't) then 'guitar on 10' has just become your lead tone.
This.

I'm not familiar with Rose Tattoo or Airbourne, but for the others this is how they play(ed). It's all in the Volume control. Watch footage of the guys from back in the day and you'll see they work the Vol and Tone controls on the guitar all the time. That is the tried and true method for how to play this type of amp.

Besides, I'm not clear as to how adding a 2nd MV will help, unless you're looking to have it bypassable using a footswitch that allows you to have it switched out of the circuit for a lead boost, then bring it back in for rhythm. In that case, you might think about using a variable "Raw" control to bypass the tone stack, and utilize a relay to activate it via footswitch. Or do the same with a variable resistance in the nfb loop, allowing you to dial in some increased resistance for more aggressive operation, increased gain and increased volume, again, controlled via footswitch activated relay. Either of those would be easier to implement than a bypassable master volume, and IMO would add versatility to the amp.

But if it's just a lead boost you want, the guitar volume control is your friend.
 

hasserl

Member
Messages
4,708
Post count = technical capability!

Really, what you're doing isn't complex. And again, I should raise my prices.

Post # 6 I'm getting better.....
I don't think it has to do with technical capability, but it's a rather abrupt way to introduce yourself.
 

mary04

Member
Messages
634
Thank you all for your kind answers!
Well, it was my idea, if possible, to make the two MV`s footswitchable, just like on the Diezel Einstein. And I was really glad for the information Jade gave, because I understand he build amps for a living (Twister Amps), and should know what he`s talking about. Also thank you for your invitation Jade, but I live in Norway, and thats extremley far away from states (and that explains my clumsy english). And to you hasserl - a lot of people say exactley like you about how this kind of amp should be treated, working the volum on the guitar, and belive me, I have tried that many times, but it just dont work. My soloplaying drowns in the mix that way. It could of course just be my lack of experience, because I`m by no means a fully educated guitarist. I also just bought the RS Vintage upgrade kit, and maybe that will do the job. I`m gonna install it next week (on my Gibson LP standard faded). And off course, I could always blame the drummer, the bassman, and the other guitarist for not turning them selves down while I`m play solos, but I still feel I need to increase the decibel a bit. Thats just the way it is!

Bottom line so far: I understand from jade its not that big a deal to install a second MV, so I`m gonna give it a try. Once again, thank you all for your nice and friendly answers (and I must say a bit advanced answers too, I had to use the english dictionary quite a bit).

Best regards
Mary
 

phsyconoodler

Member
Messages
4,305
How about a clean boost pedal in front of the amp.Add a few decibles without compromising the tone.
Or,add a simple capacitor across the volume control and use a footswitch to engage it.
I like about a .01uf to .047uf cap.It adds a big boost depending on where the volume level is set.Values that high don't add much brightness like a bright cap,just a boost for lead solos.I use something similar on my Rebel Rouser amps but I use a relay.I bet a simple footswitch would work fine.
Compensate for the increase in capacitance with the length of footswitch cable used or simply measure it with a capacitance meter.
It will work.Been there done that.Just getting the right value to make you happy will be the trial and error.
 

walterw

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
39,221
i'm no amp builder (or even an amp tech, really), but i had the exact same issue with my old 2203 marshall, and wired in a nice fix myself.

the OP is right, with a master volume amp set to '70s-'80s crunch, turning down the guitar does not sound the same (although it does sound good for other stuff), and any pedal in front does not give a real volume boost, just more saturation.

i figured out that i didn't really need a second master volume, because i wasn't going to be setting it lower than the first one, only higher. i just needed an adjustable and switchable output volume boost.

i put a relay in the amp that switched in 2 legs of a pot between the master volume's ground tab and ground. with this pot set to "0", nothing happens, but as i turn it up, it lifts the ground tab away from ground, making the master volume less effective and turning the amp up.

the relay i scrounged wanted 9 volts for switching, and rather than trying to rig up a supply inside the amp somehow, i figured i had a 9V supply right in front of me, on my pedalboard. i made a box that put 9 volts across a jack when i stepped on its switch (lighting up an LED at the same time), put it on my pedalboard to be powered by my PP2+, and put a jack in the back of the amp to connect it to the relay.

the relay was "break-before-make", so i ran little jumper wires so it wouldn't have that instant of "amp on 10" every time i switched it.

it works nicely, and there's no real added noise from the switching or from excessive signal runs inside the amp (the boost knob is real close to the master volume, in the low input jack hole).

i can now set a rhythm crunch level that fits in the mix, set a solo boost that jumps out as loud as i want (especially when i step on the distortion pedal right next to the volume booster), and as an added bonus, i can do tricks like turn the guitar down and step on the boost for a clean sound that's actually loud enough.

i've been gigging in little clubs with this setup for years, and it's a lifesaver for keeping the rhythm guitar below the vocals while putting the leads up where they belong in the mix, especially since we do our own sound.

who needs a clean channel?
 
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walterw

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
39,221
Volume control on the guitar? It worked 30 years ago - might work now.
you mean 40 years ago (1970), when most amps had no master volume and the heaviest, most distorted music was from the likes of sabbath and zeppelin?

with the cranked non-master amps you could still get a volume jump with a pedal adding overdrive, and a decent clean sound by turning the guitar down.

with higher-gain master-volume amps, it just doesn't work the same way.

also, that music is almost like blues-rock compared to today's stuff, which often calls for a lot more crunch on even the rhythm parts; you won't get that with the guitar turned down.
 

hasserl

Member
Messages
4,708
Yes, but, look at the music noted in the OP. That is not the kind of heavily saturated high gain style that you're referring to.
 

mary04

Member
Messages
634
Yes, but, look at the music noted in the OP. That is not the kind of heavily saturated high gain style that you're referring to.
Thats true, we are no metal band! But I still find it very hard to cut trough in the mix just with the volumknob - even when we play "a nice song" like acdc`s Let there be Rock or There`s gonna be some rockin. So I have to agree with walterw on this one. I prefeer a juicy crunch on my rythm parts to, and the half volum thing on my LP just don`t work. I want it to sound almost just the same on crunch and solo, only louder on the solo.
 

walterw

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
39,221
90% of a song is the rhythm part, so it's really nice to not have to compromise the sound of that just to get some volume boost on the 10% that's the solo.
 

Tone_Terrific

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
34,420
This has been kicked about before.
There is no way to boost an amp's output if you are running near saturation all the way through to the output stage. You have to have some power available to get a volume boost.
If you are getting by with preamp distortion and have some headroom left in the output stage various schemes could work but just pushing the front end harder will probably not be one of them.
(Similarly, this is why you put the volume control after the fuzz pedal)
 

walterw

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
39,221
This has been kicked about before.
There is no way to boost an amp's output if you are running near saturation all the way through to the output stage. You have to have some power available to get a volume boost.
sure, but if you've got a big enough stage (or a small enough amp) that you're maxing out the power section, what do you need a master volume for?

you could just go back to a non-master volume amp, which would likely respond better to a boost pedal (unless it was totally saturated).
 

alerich

Member
Messages
37
However, when it comes to playing solos, it`s the same situation with this one as with pretty much all other amps out there - it aint got any tool for raising the volume during solos.

I`m no tech, so my questions are: anyone of you know if there`s possible to make a second master volume on my LDW, and if that is so - anyone got any schematics they could pass on?
Gotta love the "guitar volume" folks. They just don't get it.

Here's how it's done. I activate mine with a 5VDC relay powered off of the DC heater string on my amp.

 

gldtp99

Member
Messages
4,029
Gotta love the "guitar volume" folks. They just don't get it.

Here's how it's done. I activate mine with a 5VDC relay powered off of the DC heater string on my amp.


That's it---that's how it is done----- but if the amp is a lower wattage model and it's being pushed for all it's worth for the rhythm tone then it won't have much left to give when footswitched and the additional Solo Boost pot is engaged.
This boost works better in a large wattage amp where most of the drive/distortion tone is coming from the preamp and the output section isn't being pushed very hard at band vol levels--- like a Marshall 2203 in most stage vol settings--- then there is plenty of vol capacity left over to use when the footswitch/Boost is engaged and quite a bit of vol difference is possible between rhythm and boost modes.
Most players seem to use guitar vol pot, clean boosts, vol pedals to accomplish this but the 2nd switchable MV pot in series is another option for those players who find the other options lacking--- and it works as long as the amplifier isn't being run balls-out for the rhythm .....................gldtp99
 






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