Shootout: Scumback M75-PVC vs. Celestion G12M Greenback Chinese RI

Dave_C

Member
Messages
14,095
I finally got these two speaks lined up side-by-side for a comparison using my Germino Monterey and it wasn't even close. The Scumbacks absolutely annihilated the Celestions in every category of tone that you could possibly ever name or invent. They had WAY more sustain, character, harmonic complexity and smoothness (wild retaining every facet of the classic woody, reedy classic Greenback tone from the 60s that all we old farts remember). The Scumbacks just "breathed" and bloomed throughout every pick-stroke like spring flowers after a warm rain. The Celestions sounded like harsh, dead cardboard in comparison. Given the results of the Metropoulos Greenback shootout I've been referencing in recent threads, I was absolutely SHOCKED at how misled I was by that video. My jaw is still on the floor!

I suspect a big part of it could be the fact that both of my speaker sets were thoroughly broken in, both with a variac and actual loud playing. I learned this lesson years ago but it needed repeating. You absolutely cannot compare anything tone related without lining them up side by side in the same room. And, this test was unfairly biased against the Scumbacks because they were in a Jenkins 2x12 while the Celestions were in a Germino 4x12 w/ EC Collins grill! The Jenkins is an amazing [and very underrated] 2x12 cab, but I would take that with the M75-PVCs in a heartbeat over the G12M Chinese RIs in the Germino 4x12 ANY day of the week. It was absolutely ridiculous.

I am now going to run out and get more M75-PVCs to restore my Germino 4x12 to its previous glory and load up my other cabs with those bad boys!
 

troublehead

Member
Messages
367
Different strokes. I admit I haven't tried the PVC models. However, I have directly A/B'd the old blue frame M75's, the newer BM75's, and the BM75-LD's to my Celestions.

My Chinese Reissue GB's and Heritage G12-65's sound MUCH better to my ears every time. I also like the Anniversary H30's over the Scumback H75 I had.

FWIW, I did not like the Creamback 65's, Creamback 75's, or the Heritage GB's either.

This was with hot rodded Marshallesque amps.
 

JB6464

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
4,168
Imho , only when you load both speakers in the exact same cabinet and use the same amp settings will it be a fair comparison .
Until then it's pointless because both speakers will react differently loaded in different cabinets .
 

mix2much

Member
Messages
741
I have mixed feeling about the 100 watt M75 Scumbacks I own. They have a distinct mid range that really gives it it's own flavor. Not sure it's my taste but it's certainly not a bad speaker.
 

Dave_C

Member
Messages
14,095
Different strokes. I admit I haven't tried the PVC models. However, I have directly A/B'd the old blue frame M75's, the newer BM75's, and the BM75-LD's to my Celestions.

My Chinese Reissue GB's and Heritage G12-65's sound MUCH better to my ears every time. I also like the Anniversary H30's over the Scumback H75 I had.

FWIW, I did not like the Creamback 65's, Creamback 75's, or the Heritage GB's either.

This was with hot rodded Marshallesque amps.
The black frame PVCs are special, IMO. The last time I ran my Heritage G12-65s against the Scumback equivalents, admittedly, in different 2x12s (and these two boxes are VERY different), I did come away liking the Heritage a little bit better. This wasn't a really useful test because the 2x12s sound so different but one doesn't sound BETTER than the other, so I'm not so sure what that proved.

But, the PVCs (back when I had all 4 in a 4x12) and, now in the Jenkins 2x12, sound WAY better to me than the Heritage G12-65s loaded in two different cabs - a oval open-back 1x12 and Germino 2x12. The PVCs have way more sustain, openness and 3D clarity to my ears. But, today, against the Chinese RI GBs, it was just ridiculous. The GBs were clearly inferior in every measurement of tone that we typically talk about.
 
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Dave_C

Member
Messages
14,095
Imho , only when you load both speakers in the exact same cabinet and use the same amp settings will it be a fair comparison .
Until then it's pointless because both speakers will react differently loaded in different cabinets .
Well, that's true, but with every other same-speaker match-up I've run like this, the 4x12 always wins quite easily. I suppose it's possible I found some super magical combination with the Jenkins 2x12 with particle board back and PVCs though.
 

troublehead

Member
Messages
367
I might have to try the PVC's then. That's the thing that bothered me about all the other Scumbacks I tried....they had a closed sounding, boxy midrange. The Celestions just sounded more open and natural.
 

QRSS

brutalist
Messages
9,376
Imho , only when you load both speakers in the exact same cabinet and use the same amp settings will it be a fair comparison .
Until then it's pointless because both speakers will react differently loaded in different cabinets .
agreed. George went through great effort to make all things the same and allowed people to listen for themselves. I thought all the speakers recorded in the video sounded fine. even the asw after the redo.
 

LPMojoGL

Music Room Superstar
Silver Supporting Member
Messages
9,205
Dave_C,

Thanks for sharing.
I compared a GBRI to a Scumback M75 65 watter, same cab, and preferred the GB.
Both were well broken in.
That was with a Germino Club 40 and Masonette.
Not exactly apples to apples due to the wattage rating.
That being said, the best cab I've heard (on the day I sold my Friedman JJ100 :( ), was a raw Scumback 4x12 loaded with M75s. That was perfection as far as cabs go.

The G12h30 55hz is a pretty awesome speaker, too. It did really well in my mic'd up comparisons.
Plenty of clarity with that one.
I didn't care for the Creamback 65. Currently using a Creamback H75 with a v30 in a 2x12, but considering going back to a Scumback M75 for the darker sound and extra crunch...just what the dr ordered for a newly acquired 69 Bassman. Maybe I shall give the PVCs a try.

Cheers!
 

fusionbear

exquirentibus veritatem
Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
11,024
I am totally biased for the Scumback's.....

I have tried a ton of speakers. A/B'd them in same cabs and what not. There is no reason for me to look elsewhere...

I own M55, M75, M75LD, J75, J75LD, H75. Have demo'd the S75's and SC75's and love them too!

YMMV....
 

critter74

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
5,123
Eh, I have Celestion GB Heritage and Chinese RI (as well Creamback H & M, G12-h30's, etc yada yada yada) as well a Scumback H/M/J PVC (60 watts or 65? Can't rember exactly ATM) as well as H/M/J regular coils at 100 watt, as well as a **** ton of different WGS versions of the same and Eminence. In short I went through a speaker binge awhile ago.

For me.... They're all good. Depends on the amp, the cab and what you want. There are Amps and situations where the Scumbacks are my least favorite. Other times they're the best. There is no "blows it out of the water" as its all relative and personal.

Scumbacks are great speakers. But they are far from the last word on them. Same with Celestions.

Honestly for me (and many others), speakers are absolutely the 1 item that will change your tone over anything else, by 10 country miles. So therefore they are also the most "personal and preferential".
 

RussB

low rent hobbyist
Messages
11,157
Frankly, if the speakers aren't in the same box, the test isn't fair.

I've got an M75-65 I bought used. Luv it! I have it in a Lopo closed-back 2-12 with a Creamback M65. Nice mix. Then I bought 2 used H75-LD-65's...not digging those so much. I just got a new M75-LD-65 and mixed it with 1 H75 in my Mojotone 2-12 and really like what I'm hearing. I was pounding it good today with the Mesa recto and yesterday with the Bad Cat
 

RussB

low rent hobbyist
Messages
11,157
Honestly for me (and many others), speakers are absolutely the 1 item that will change your tone over anything else, by 10 country miles. So therefore they are also the most "personal and preferential".

Preach it!
 

Dave_C

Member
Messages
14,095
The black frame PVCs are special, IMO. The last time I ran my Heritage G12-65s against the Scumback equivalents, admittedly, in different 2x12s, I did come away liking the Heritage. But, the PVCs (back when I had all 4 in a 4x12) and, now in the Jenkins 2x12, sound better to me than the Heritage G12-65s, but that's not apples to apples. That said, the PVCs still more sustain, openness and 3D clarity to my ears. But, today, against the Chinese RI GBs. it was just ridiculous. The GBs were clearly inferior in every measurement of tone that we typically talk about.
Frankly, if the speakers aren't in the same box, the test isn't fair.

I've got an M75-65 I bought used. Luv it! I have it in a Lopo closed-back 2-12 with a Creamback M65. Nice mix. Then I bought 2 used H75-LD-65's...not digging those so much. I just got a new M75-LD-65 and mixed it with 1 H75 in my Mojotone 2-12 and really like what I'm hearing. I was pounding it good today with the Mesa recto and yesterday with the Bad Cat
I agree, in general. Thing here though is that the Scumbacks were at a disadvantage as far as cabs go. I've had several shootouts between these cabs with identical speakers and the 4x12 always sounded best, no matter what. Today the "lesser" 2x12 cab with the M75-PVCs made the normally much bigger, badder and better 4x12 with GB RIs sound neutered in comparison.
 

ebenezer

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
2,173
Scumbacks are amazing and Jim is absolutely top notch. In my experience, there's no better speaker company out there!
 






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