Should I go with Helix LT or Headrush?

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by specialidiot, Dec 30, 2017.


Which should I use? Please read the OP

  1. Helix LT

    63 vote(s)
    67.7%
  2. Headrush

    13 vote(s)
    14.0%
  3. Something else

    14 vote(s)
    15.1%
  4. Stick with pedals

    3 vote(s)
    3.2%
  1. Elric

    Elric Member

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    Internet communities opinion shift all the time and their population is, by nature transient, not sure why one would find this particularly interesting. It would actually be astonishing if it were not the case.
     
  2. phil_m

    phil_m Supporting Member

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    If you came one here and said you liked Line 6 a few years ago, it was akin to saying you liked kicking puppies in your spare time... (Which actually is one of my hobbies...)
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
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  3. Elric

    Elric Member

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    I had been here for nearly eight years when you showed up based on join dates, so I’m pretty aware of the history and have seen a crazy number of flavors of the month come and go...

    L6 actually had a lot of mindshare prior to Fractal being a thing.. after the Axe: suddenly there was this huge gap in perception and you had people who had quickly become deeply invested financially and emotionally in digital rigs.

    Most of the L6 hate prior to that was generalized modeler versus amplifier hate. IMHO. It was Digitech vs Boss vs L6 vs Johnson vs Vox and Vamp back then and L6 easily held ground in that field.

    You showed up during the post Fractal era where L6 was viewed as the fallen standard bearer for modeling (for good reason, IMHO).
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
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  4. mikah912

    mikah912 Member

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    Not at all. Reading the aforementioned explanation of what is new about the Headrush, they simply mention recompilation of the codebase and adjustment of the internal sampling of what was already there. There's not a single mention of remodeling the actual amps and pedals that were originally modeled. Or any interaction with them whatsoever. Line 6 has not only already considerably expanded the existing lineup of amp and pedal models, but has pictured the existing ones that they obviously own and operate daily - as well as done A/B comparisons with the "real" versions and their Helix analogues.

    I don't care about "old" or "new" as it relates to sound quality. But HeadRush is a weird marriage of rehashed modeling and blatantly stolen industrial design and product features.

    Well, Line 6 has indicated 20,000+ sales across the product range in just two years, which would make it a success waaaaaaaaaaay beyond the inhabitants of this forum. That would be a blockbuster runaway success for any manufacturer making $1000+ units in the industry right now. So, its merit is simply being represented appropriately here, whether you care for it or not.

    In time, the pendulum will swing elsewhere. Maybe Axe 3...Kemper 2...who knows?
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
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  5. phil_m

    phil_m Supporting Member

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    I'm putting my money on the V-Amp 4...
     
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  6. MatchFive

    MatchFive Silver Supporting Member

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    Gorilla amp 5000
     
  7. Dale007

    Dale007 Member

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    You STILL get that treatment if you actually say you can get some good sounds from the HD500. Lol
     
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  8. Judge Smails

    Judge Smails Member

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    This post is full of assumptions or you know all this first hand inside info. Hopefully you’re not just a giant blowhard.
     
  9. benifin

    benifin Supporting Member

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    Hey ... lighten up .. for the record mikah912 is absolutly correct.

    At the risk of being too self-referencing ..... I posted the info below 6 months ago

    ___________

    As I have posted elsewhere, to HeadRush's credit, they are eqaully open and honest - to wit .... the following is direclty from the HRush website:-

    " What is Eleven® HD Expanded™, and how is it different from the Eleven Rack/Plug-In?

    Eleven HD Expanded is the name of the DSP software that powers the HeadRush Pedalboard™. When we were creating the HeadRush Pedalboard, we disassembled the legacy Eleven Rack/Plug-In code completely, then we reconstructed the whole architecture for our new DSP system. Our modeling now sounds more realistic than ever, there’s more flexibility for users in creating rigs, we’ve added new effects and features, and it has better overall performance.

    During this process, we only took the values from the measurements that were calculated when creating the original models. Then the internal oversampling was renewed, and we disabled some previously required waveshaper downsampling, so that our models have a better sound quality with a more authentic realism and definition than the original code.

    Even the most basic DSP units were rewritten this way, so we can now do parallel processing and fit it to our new DSP platform ....... "

    HRush are openly telling us that they took the 7+ year old 11R algorithms ......... decompressed them ... cleaned them up ..... seperated some blocks .... added an IR loading block ... then recomplied it for a more modern processors. This is HRush's own website details.

    From HRush themselves then, we know as a fact that:-

    - there has been no remodelling of any Amps or EFX from the original 8+ year old code
    - there have been no new measurments made of any of the Amps or EFX from the 11R
    - all exisiting Amp and EFX core / base measurments and modelling data are unchanged from the same 8+ year old 11R technology
    - addition of new efx [ let alone new amps] based on what they seem to be also now saying, is not necessarly a priority - for now at least anway


    ..... and ..... theres NOTHING at all wrong with what they have done and are doing .... period.

    To me though ........ given the facts ....... for them to suggest that their product is not just comparable-state-of-the-art but "the best" ... well ..... that is imo "marketing beyond the edge of credulity" .... but again, this is their right to do !!!

    Up until the HRush "released" ..... no-one that I know of thought that 11R running into an IR loader was "equal to" or "better" than an Axe or Helix or A/Fire ..... sure an 11R running into an IR loader may/will sound better, than an 11R not running in to an IR loader ...... but it is still 8+ year old algorithms running into an IR loader.

    I could totally understand the HRush "enthusiasm" if it was a new modller with new ways of modelling, new algotihms etc...... but it isnt ..... we know exaclty what it is .... and I applaud HRush for their openeess about this

    So to me, .... putting it in the same basket as the AX8 or Helix or even the A/Fire ..... well ... thats just ..."not right" [<- thats the most diplomatic way I can put it]

    Ben
    ___________

    I dont know to what extent you have used one of the big 3 modeller ... Axe / Kemper / Helix ..... or even the AFire ...... I have been extemely fortunate to own and use all the big 3 ...... I only say this as it important to know just how good these 3 units are ..... but no matter how ever you "slice up the cake" the " 11R Mk II now with IR loading" is 8+ year old modelling architecture, 8+ year old measurments and 8+ year old modelling ..... period.

    As I have said elsewhere, other than the looper time and color touch screen ..... the Headrush, both sonically and functionally, is not even " out of the driveway, onto the highway, driving into the car park " of the same ball-park as the LT or the Axe or Kemper.

    Ben
     
  10. mattball826

    mattball826 Member

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    There was a time when TGP was FAS forum part deux.

    It's a new world now when you see days or weeks of Line 6 Helix, Katana for abit (kind of died now that everyone here has one), then all the hoopla over the GE200 which isn't the most useful of modelers by far, but certainly carried the most hype of the year for something as limited.
     
  11. mikah912

    mikah912 Member

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    Everything I said is substantiated by both HeadRush's and Line 6's public statements on their respective products. Everything except for the design theft, but I don't think anyone is disputing that....
     
  12. Dude705

    Dude705 Member

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    ...and where does this come from and who is saying this? There has been new effects and at least one amp and a bunch of cool features added to the HR in recent firmware updates.
     
  13. Anthony Newcomb

    Anthony Newcomb Silver Supporting Member

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    I think if there was anything remotely seen as design "theft" by HR, line 6 would have brought them to court by now. It's a pedalboard. Was HR supposed to make a round one? Or put the expression pedal on the left..? Or use rubber nipples instead of metal switches?

    It's like me saying that every smartphone maker with a touchscreen ripped off apple's first iPhone. Or how dare Chevy put 4 tires on their vehicle like ford did in the beginning...

    Line 6 owns the rights to their name, software, and exact pedal design (probably), not the general "concept" of a multi effect floorboard layout or usage.

    I would assume Line 6 is probably flattered that other companies want to follow suit based on L6's innovations. I'm sure they understand that they can't and shouldn't be a monopoly.

    I say share innovation, and I see no issues as long as the similarities between products are things that (can't) be helped when trying to stay "practical" is part of the goal in development. Similarities are to be expected as we move ahead with technology.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
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  14. phil_m

    phil_m Supporting Member

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    There probably is enough IP, uh, "borrowing" going on that Line 6 could make a case... They're generally not a litigious company, though. I don't think they're all that worried about the HR, though.

    But I have no doubt that inMusic plays fast and loose with IP... I mentioned Roger Linn above. He didn't sue, but he could have. Others have - and have won.
     
  15. Anthony Newcomb

    Anthony Newcomb Silver Supporting Member

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    Well I of course understand similarities are more than likely the result of using others ideas...I'm just mystified to why the word "theft" is used so loosely. If I was to make my own "car" and told this to the world, I think we all know in our minds what it would probably resemble before it was even built. And if I wanted it to remain practical and "familiar", the only real thing I could change would be its general shape and parts of its layout. I think HR were just trying to keep it familiar. People in general, are not too fond of change when it lacks things their used to or expect.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  16. maxnew40

    maxnew40 Member

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    The Helix has a real advantage if you are just using it for effects, there are just more effects on the Helix and more are added with nearly every firmware update. Just compare the drive models on a Headrush with the drive models on a Helix.
     
  17. maxnew40

    maxnew40 Member

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    The Helix code is not reused HD500 code. Are you purposely trying to mislead people or do you not understand the that the Helix only uses the HD reverbs that were developed for the HD500 and the rest is new? The Headrush runs quite old uncompressed 11 rack code as has been stated by the company that produces them.
     
  18. mikah912

    mikah912 Member

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    I think it's disingenuous to wave away the "design" of the HeadRush as "Well, there are only so many ways to make a multiFX pedalboard, so....."

    There are plenty of ways that don't blatantly copy the Helix....Amplifire 12. ISP Theta Pro. Fractal AX8. That's what happens when a company actually has an identity and a design language. They make their products, not clones of competitors.

    Of course there are some similarities between competitors, and Line 6 has most certainly taken cues from competitors in their features. The scribble strips of the Helix Floor evoke the RJM Mastermind floor controller, but it doesn't define the product since the rest of it builds upon the long ago established design language of the Firehawk pedalboard. You remove the strips - as they did for the LT - and the Helix looks like a Firehawk+ moreso than any other product. Or take Snapshots - which is a clear analogue to Fractal's Scenes. They put their own spin on the feature and gave it capabilities that Scenes didn't have. That's way beyond "Oh, check out our amazing 'new' feature, Pedal Edit mode!......." like HeadRush has done.

    Headrush reminds me of those knockoff films from companies like The Orchard that look like major blockbusters and have similar titles, but are just meant for you to rent them by accident from Redbox or whatever online video service you use. It's meant to sit alongside a Helix on a Guitar Center shelf and pull you toward it with its lower price, but that's not even much of a draw now that the LT dropped. The crazy thing is...I still wish them success if they actually get around to creating an identity of their own. This space can only benefit from more legit competitors.
     
  19. Dude705

    Dude705 Member

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    I did not say that the helix uses code from the HD500 and it was a question. Where do you see in my post that I said the Helix uses HD500 code? How would that be misleading? What I said is what I said.... the Helix is an upgrade from the HD500....isn’t it?
     
  20. Dude705

    Dude705 Member

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    Well I guess when the existing modellers jump to the next Gen with their touch screens and built in WIFI and Bluetooth features, we can say they copied HR? Now that would not be nice now would it.
     

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