So many speaker options. Please help.

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by megatrav, Jun 23, 2019.

  1. megatrav

    megatrav Member

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    What a time to be alive. There are so many brands and options within those brands to get any type of speaker imaginable.

    I have spent months reading threads on forums (this one and others), listening to clips (on youtube, sound cloud, websites, etc), and e-mailing different makers and asking for suggestions.
    I have gotten a lot of recommendations.

    The problem is, I don't know what the frequencies that I am wanting to hear to be able to explain what it is that I want out of a speaker.

    The amp is a 112 combo (large 112 combo). It is around 15 watts and uses 6l6 tubes (smaller transformers, I'd guess). It has two channels. Channel 1 is all clean, and features a volume and tone control. This channel is also very mid-focused.
    The speaker that it has is a Celestion V-type, which is a very mid forward speaker.

    I’m not looking for a scooped mid speaker, but something more balanced than this speaker would be ideal so that I can actually use Channel 1.

    Some recommendations I have gotten (along with reasons I’m not sure about them):

    -Celestion G12H30 (I’m worried the low end will be too much, also am considering higher wattage to avoid cone break up)

    -Avatar Fane H75 (Not sure if it will be too bright also maybe too much low end

    -WGS Invader 50 (not sure how the midrange will sit with Channel 1, otherwise a solid contender)

    -WGS Retro 30 (not sure anything about it. Clips give me mixed results)

    -Scumback BM75 or BH75 65 watts (not sure how they sound really, not many clips out there)

    -Weber Gray Wolf (didn’t like the clean tones from the clips on his website)

    -Weber Legacy (seems great, but I don’t know how all of these options will interpret the end result)

    So, without being able to describe actual frequencies, what speaker would have
    -tight/punchy low end
    -balances mids (or less accentuated than the V Type/Vintage 30)
    -nice high end but not piercing like I’ve heard some speakers.

    I’m sorry I’m advance for making a new thread about speakers. I appreciate any advice.

    Btw the amp is a Blackstar Artist 15 for anyone who is interested.
     
  2. Jabby92

    Jabby92 Member

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    I'd probably look at the Celestion Classic Lead 80 or the Black Shadow that Mesa makes. I find them both to be very balanced and run both in my rig together. Wouldn't want any other speakers. YMMV of course.
     
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  3. megatrav

    megatrav Member

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    Thanks for the reply!
    I have not spent much time looking into the Classic Lead 80, and I've never heard of the Black Shadow
     
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  4. truckin

    truckin Supporting Member

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    You can try an EVM12L. It's a pretty neutral speaker.
     
  5. Jabby92

    Jabby92 Member

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    Yeah, they're my favourite speakers personally. Always found V30s to be too harsh/bright but it'll depend entirely on the sounds you're going for. I like V30s for cleans a lot of the time but for overdrive and distortion, I'll always take the Classic Lead or Black Shadow type speakers, I just find them way more balanced and fuller.



    Everyone has different ears for tone, I just like the darker sound with less fizz and harshness.
     
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  6. scotty31

    scotty31 Member

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    The WGS ET90 is one of the best speakers i've ever come across.
    I use a pair in a Lonestar Classic and when i compare my amp to stock versions there is a very noticeable difference in how much nicer the speaker is, either clean or dirty.

    I plan to load 4 into a cab one day as an alternative to my current 412 (which is loaded with EV12's).
     
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  7. candid_x

    candid_x Supporting Member

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    The amp is intended to cross over between British and American voiced, with 6L6 (typically American) class A (typically Brit) - also why it's only 15 watts with big glass. First you must consider the design and limitations of the amp. You may not be able to get to that big bottom end you're hearing in your head, regardless of the speaker.

    A suggestion, though, is an Emi Red White and Blue, which is mainly American voiced, with a generous and fairly tight low end.

    My other recommendation, you have already mentioned, is a WGS Retro. Though likened to a V30 too much, it's really its own thing. I've used it in a few amps with good results. I think this would be my first go to with your amp, based on your desired result.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
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  8. megatrav

    megatrav Member

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    I have no checked out the ET-90, but I have owned the ET-65. I will do more research on this one.

    Thanks for the suggestion. To be clear, I am actually not looking for a big bottom end. I may have described that incorrectly. I often worry that there is too much bottom end with the current speaker.
    Overall, I'm looking for balance, so that I can use Channel 1 more.

    I will definitely check out the Red, White and Blue and put a second check next to the Retro 30
     
  9. megatrav

    megatrav Member

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    Thanks for sharing! I will give this a listen once I have a chance.
     
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  10. candid_x

    candid_x Supporting Member

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    Ah, got it. I'd scratch the RWB then, but would give the Retro a serious consideration. It's an evenly balanced speaker overall. I'd ignore the comparisons to a V30. It's much warmer and thicker than that.
     
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  11. candid_x

    candid_x Supporting Member

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  12. Geeze

    Geeze Silver Supporting Member

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    It's my experience that the bottom end [too much of it] is the amp, but the speaker can/will be flubby or loose if it's not designed to handle excessive lows. Namely the correct speaker can handle the 'big' lows but not attenuate them.

    Unless you plan to spend $$$ exploring the various speaker options this is a great opportunity to use other gear head's cabs to test with your amp. Or spend $$$.

    If the amp is the culprit for the excessive lows I've found using treble boosters/OD/dirt pedals as a means to filter out the lows. An alternative is to mod the filtering on the amp - I had this done on a 1987 a friend built me as the low end became overpowering before the amp was half way up.

    Russ
     
  13. 71strat

    71strat Member

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    I use a 90w Alnico Celestion Cream with 6v6, 6L6, KT66 ( Real 1s ) based amp, and a JTM45 circuit.

    Amps are a 69 Dual Showman Rvb/Blackfaced x ODS mod
    2013 LTD ED Metro GMP45 head/65 JTM45 clone.
    5w HW Champ Head
    The speaker is very even tempered, and doesn't accentuate any frequencies, though it does have the basic Celestion sound.
    Takes lows very well, and no ice pick highs. Mids are very smooth, and the speaker will do anything from clean to high gain.
    15w is also more than enough to get it going.
    Id go with an M75 for a Scumback. Scumback makes great speakers.
     
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  14. De Batz

    De Batz Member

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    You can make a sensible prediction of what a speaker will sound like.

    The V type is a slightly less than 'M' magnet (31oz as opposed to a Greenback at 35oz). That tends, all else being equal, to focus the sound in the mids. H-magnet speakers include the G12H-30 (as the name suggests), but also the Classic Lead and the V30. A heavier magnet again is the Fane H75, which I think is very close to the F70 they sell in the UK. Heavier magnets mean you get more control of the bass but not necessarily more of it.

    Power handling and cone break-up are not related in the slightest. There seem to be two different cones Celestion uses (lead and bass) and not a great deal else. These affect the sound, definitely, with the lead cones being brighter and tighter (all else being equal!). What affects power handling is the voice coil and former. So a paper voice coil former (a ring to wrap the voice coil wires around) will burn at a relatively low temperature. Make the same thing out of kapton, and it'll survive a higher temperature. So you can feed it more power before it gives up. But it might be slightly heavier, so less sensitive, slower responding, different balance of frequencies.

    Some speakers - notably the CL80, from memory - have the vent in the back. I forget what effect this is supposed to have, because I currently don't own any CL80s or their close cousins, the Mesa Black Shadow C90.

    Just for clarity, then: cone break-up is independent of power handling. A G12H30 cone could probably take five times its rated power without shredding, but the VC would be knackered. The cones do non-linear stuff at pretty low power anyway, according to Celestion.

    That said, what would I recommend? Based on your amp and your suggestions, the first thing I would do is take the amp to a local guitar shop with the advertised intention of finding a 1x12 extension cab. Many of the available options will have V30s, and you might just see a Creamback H75 or an anniversary G12H30. They would be my initial suggestions on the basis that I've got good performance out of G12H30s and V30s for 'crossover' American/British amps, and V30s - despite the reputation they carry for being rubbish - are popular for good reasons.

    In the UK, Fane F70s are cheaper than Celestions or Eminences, and so there's almost no reason not to buy one, because they do just about everything that a V30 does, but slightly better. The high power handling shouldn't put you off (nor should you read it as encouraging in itself) either. At the moment, these would be my favourite speaker with a naturally bright amp. I wouldn't pair them with a dark / warm amp, though.
     
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  15. Tzirfigu

    Tzirfigu Member

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    Evl are great almost fullrange speaker, with great bottom end. Celestion alnico (golds or cream) if you are not going for heavy metal and want something more kind of sweet.
     
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  16. guitarplayer1

    guitarplayer1 Supporting Member

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    Almost impossible to get much out of replies on a forum ... when it comes to speakers you really have to try them out with your amp, guitar and hands as those factors have so much effect. For my money you can hardly go wrong with some type of Celestion as they have been a benchmark for so many years ... of course even among Celestions there is a wide ranging set of sounds. I'd recommend what someone already did, go find a bunch of cabs with different speakers and hear for yourself. Granted the cab and configuration will make a difference but at least you can get in the ballpark. EV's and Celestions sound remarkably different to my ears. One curious comment was the idea of the speaker having "too much bass" ... I've never encountered an amp that had too much bass with the EQ control on 0 ... of course I'm assuming you have separate EQ controls on the amp instead of just a "tone" knob (which is what is on my Dr Z. Carmen Ghia). Buying a few used speakers and reselling the ones you don't want might also be a better way to do it ....

    I feel the same about guitar pickups and/or wine .... descriptions just don't help me much .... YMMV.

    BTW: The Vintage 30 does have subtle hints of blackberry mixed with a woody smokey aftertaste of mesquite ... ?? .... : )
     
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  17. harvey j

    harvey j Member

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    Eminence has a Neo version of the EV and it is very light weight.
     
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  18. megatrav

    megatrav Member

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    There are a lot of responses and some really great information here. I am grateful for it.

    I will try to summarize my responses to everyone.

    @candid_x Thank you for the clip.

    @Geeze Unfortunately, that isn't really an option for me. Most places in town have Vintage 30s, Greenbacks, Seventy 80's, etc.

    @De Batz Thank you for the well-written response. I would like to say that I have had experiences with Vintage 30s in the past with other amps and I didn't really care for them at all.
    As for the Avatar Fane's, do you mean that you wouldn't put a brighter speaker with a darker amp to give it more brightness?

    General message:
    My though process for finding a speaker has been this-
    If Channel 1 already has a mid-focus in the circuit, then a more balanced speaker would still have the nice mid-forward tone but not be too extreme.
    Channel 2 has a full EQ plus the ISF, whereas Channel 1 is volume and tone.

    I am not trying to get the amp to do something it wasn't designed for, but I know how much a speaker change can make a difference.

    I primarily play rhythm, so cutting in a mix isn't as important as it would be for some players.
    Although, I don't want to have a scooped tone.

    Lastly, I know Celestion is the household speaker names and I know why. I know WGS makes awesome speakers for the money.
    I am surprised no one has suggested an American voice speaker, like a Jensen, WGS G12C or even a Celestion A type.

    To be fair, they weren't really on my radar before, but is this another route I should be looking towards.
    A buddy of mine has a stock 65 DRRI and the Jensen C12K in it sounds really great to me.
    Mids stand out in a mix, but doesn't cut your head off like a Vintage 30 does (in my experience).
     
  19. megatrav

    megatrav Member

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    Do you know the name of it?
     
  20. De Batz

    De Batz Member

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    The F70 doesn't have a really forward treble response. It's less in-your-face than other 12s I've got, which works well with brighter sounding amps (my Cornford) but isn't great with the naturally dark Heartbreaker, which can end up sounding soupy and undefined.

    I don't think you get more treble from the speaker per se, I just think it puts the emphasis in a particular place. P10Rs very much emphasise the higher mids and the treble, with the bass being a sort of loose, gooey mess which works great for a few things and very badly for others.
     
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