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So we all ragged on Danelectro...Why no Joyo/Mooer boycot?

stads

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
187
Ok gang. I've done a quick forum search and I didn't see a thread here, so I'm putting it up for discussion.

So I'm a little late to this party, but I know that Joyo and Mooer have gone and directly ripped off pedals to undercut prices and entice budget players (like me).

Here's the groundwork:


  1. Joyo
    • Joyo Sweet Baby vs Mad Professor Sweet Honey - Same circuit, same color, and Joyo even copied the same "focus" label on their tone knob.
    • Joyo American Dream vs Suhr Riot - Same Circuit, same color (EDIT - John was kind enough to show me the light on this one - it's not a clone).
    • Joyo Hot Plexi - I'm not sure which plexi pedal this is going after, but they used this one to replace their Plexidrive, which is a wampler thing.
    • I'm sure there are others, but I have not seen them yet
  2. Mooer - too many to list - Keeley DS-1, EHX POG and Elec Mistress, OCD, RAT, PS-5, Crunchbox, AC Boost, RC Boost, Bluesky Reverb, and others. Same colors as the pedals they're cloning, and a direct attempt to steal users of those products.
So, when Danelectro went after the Timmy, we all got really mad because (and this is the truth, I know first hand) Paul is an awesome dude, he charges a super fair price, and Dano made the pedals in china on the cheap. We all similarly frowned upon the OCD, Peach Fuzz, Crunchbox, and other clones that Dano made and collectively forced them to reissue their pedals with some real mods.



Similarly, lots of people won't buy from JHS knowing they're getting a Crunchbox or BSIAB II with an added presence knob because we love MI audio and their small company style and fair pricing.



BUT - when Mooer and Joyo came along, we liked the small enclosures, we were a little poorer than when the Paul C / Dano thing came out, and we sort of caved in. I see them for sale in the forums, on peoples' boards, and part of the mainstream in a way that didn't happen for the TOD-1.



So, long story long, here are my questions:

1. Am I wrong? Are we treating these dudes the same way we treated Dano and I'm just not seeing it?


2. Why did we cave? Is it because the circuits are more desireable, famous, or expensive? Is it because we're poorer than we were a few years back? Is it because our ethics have been worn down?



3. Is this going to help lower the price of handmade pedals, or will it drive small businesses in the US out of business because we don't stand up for originality or the handmade? We clearly want the originals when we buy these (unless you're truly out of pedalboard space and NEED that one mini pedal)...


4. How do we do the right thing here? What does the pedal world have to do (or what should they consider) before diving into these...


I'm not railing on anyone here or even pushing an agenda. I'm just curious as to whether or not this is ok, how we let it happen, and what we're going to do about it.







WAIT! - a few conversations I'd skip in this thread (forgive me for this, but threads get highjacked to these topics all the time).


1. Boss and Ibanez are multinational companies that do tons of business and have kept their circuits the same for a long time, and improving on quality of their stuff is commonplace these days. I'm referring to the small builders here, not these guys - unless someone feels that undercutting them is equally unethical or criminal (which very well might be).

2. Despite attempts to patent circuits, I do know that it's very hard to protect a patent and that circuit variations have become commonplace. I have played more than 20 TS variants over the last 5 years (BB, BB+, AC, AM Silver, Keeley Baked, Keeley Plus, Arteffect Zenith, VFE Scream, VFE Pale Horse, BBE Green Screamer (son of screamer), Lovepedal Eternity, Kanji, Burst, E9, Roadhouse, and others (all son of screamer), Kalamazoo, MP LGW, CMATMODS Signa and Tubeslammer, and a ton of others. I know that there are legit changes to circuits and ruthless attempts to steal. I'm not asking about ethics of circuit mods, clones, etc. - just these direct copies and associated business practices.

3. This isn't about subtle tone difference or SMC/PCB/handwired discussions. Pricing difference comes with component differences that some believe in and some don't. I know that components and methods are different based on price and place of origin. I'm not asking about quality of goods or subtle tonal differences.

3. Joyo and Mooer stuff comes from China. I'm not asking about whether we should buy from China vs the US, except where cultural ethical differences might apply.

Thanks for reading this much (if you got this far). You're a patient bordie ;)
 
Last edited:

Husky

Member
Messages
12,086
Ok gang. I've done a quick forum search and I didn't see a thread here, so I'm putting it up for discussion.

So I'm a little late to this party, but I know that Joyo and Mooer have gone and directly ripped off pedals to undercut prices and entice budget players (like me).

Here's the groundwork:


[*]Joyo American Dream vs Suhr Riot - Same Circuit, same color
Not patient and didnt read the whole post but the Joyo is a far cry from the Riot, not the same circuit either. We have one here and it is a decent budget pedal but that is as far as it goes in a comparison to the Riot :beer

Maybe it is like stealing songs, people will do it but they may not admit it. Customer will buy the copies but don't advertise they do.
 

stads

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
187
Hey J -

Thanks for calling me out on that. I'll update the post.

In all fairness - I didn't know that I was listening to Indian Music when I checked out Timbaland or that I was listening to Satriani when I put on that coldplay song. They might not know they're getting clones, I guess.

Cheers!

- D
 

gtrbarbarian

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
2,012
Western Electric --> F*nder ---> D**ble---------------------->
--------------------------------------->M**shall--------------------->
--------------------------------------->SLO-------------------------- > Ce**atone
---------------------------------------> ad infinitum --------------->

Same with pedals. If someone invents something new that can be patented, then they should. Otherwise, the boutique pedal industry is built on the same similar circuit designs..... Why should Biyang and Joyo be singled out? The demand in the marketplace seems to be there. No one is upset that Boss and or Ibanez have lost out on marketshare due to copies being made....? Big business, small business...ethics don't change based on company size...What company size in your estimation makes it not bad to copy from?

Not following your logic here...
 

Peteyvee

Premium Platinum Member
Messages
56,049
Quoted for truth. :aok

Western Electric --> F*nder ---> D**ble---------------------->
--------------------------------------->M**shall--------------------->
--------------------------------------->SLO-------------------------- > Ce**atone
---------------------------------------> ad infinitum --------------->

Same with pedals. If someone invents something new that can be patented, then they should. Otherwise, the boutique pedal industry is built on the same similar circuit designs..... Why should Biyang and Joyo be singled out? The demand in the marketplace seems to be there. No one is upset that Boss and or Ibanez have lost out on marketshare due to copies being made....? Big business, small business...ethics don't change based on company size...What company size in your estimation makes it not bad to copy from?

Not following your logic here...
 

sksmith66

Member
Messages
2,950
it is ethically acceptable to build a circuit identical to a circuit being built by a different company. period. end of story. go take a business ethics course. any reasonable course will lay out a framework for making ethical decisions and if you follow any reasonable ethical decision making process you'll come to the realization that building a product that includes identical components to a competitors products is not unethical.

the entire debate hinges on people trying to frame brand loyalty as an ethics issue.
 

analogmike

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
6,984
If you think that a $400 boiling point pedal will make someone at Ibanez feel bad, and hurt them, don't buy the BP.

If you think that a cheap knockoff of a Timmy pedal will make Paul C feel bad, and hurt him, don't buy the knockoff.

I feel for the latter, not the former, but then again I am in Paul C's league, not Ibanez's.

Do unto others.... THAT IS ETHICS, not what you learn in business school.
 

IRG

Member
Messages
5,102
I understand the OP's message, which hasn't really been addressed here. Why did folks get so bent out of shape with Dano for cloning, but not Joyo/Mooer?

The examples were pretty good, in some cases, the circuits are the same, in others modded. But the looks for some of those Joyos are a complete ripoff. Personally I'm not buying a clone of anything that is an exact copy, both circuit wise, and aesthetically. I'd rather have less pedals, but those being originals of the company who spends money/time developing them.

If Joyo/Mooer etc. build a pedal that is similar, but not exact, and not a copy aesthetically, then I'm fine with it. I'd still for the most part, like to support made in the USA, or at least not support factories in China etc. that might be exploiting children and/or workers with slave wages. I'm not perfect with that probably, but I do try.
 

blk albm

Member
Messages
251
I understand the frustration with this because it seems like we here almost are on the team with the companies we are fans of and hate that they get ripped off for cheaper but business is business so I see both sides.
 

ERGExplorer

Member
Messages
6,076
I like that the OP specifically ruled out the same consideration for large companies as for small builders.

Yes, I do feel that if one is going to talk about copying unpatented items as unethical, then that's the behavior being decried, regardless of who is engaging in it, big or small, or who is making less money due to it, big or small.

I believe someone also introduced the novel idea that ethics means doing onto others as you would want done unto you in the same circumstances. Until someone writes about selling their gear and donating the proceeds to alleviate world hunger, rather than engaging in what is basically a pastime, I think that asserted viewpoint can be put aside as being an interesting idea, but not one which most members of TGP have embraced.
 

gtrbarbarian

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
2,012
I'm really not up for an involved debate today, but the logic here is what is bothering me. It's causing an itch that I can't quite scratch. Bear with me.

This is rationalization in ethics. So let me understand this:

- It is ok to clone an I***ez or B*ss pedal because they are large companies that can 'take potential financial loss'.
-It is ok to mod an I***ez or B*ss pedal and sell it as a better product while marketing that the stock product is inferior, because they are large companies that can 'take potential financial loss'.
-It is ok to make clones of Les Pauls, Strats and Teles that are of exactly or almost the same quality as originals for almost 40 years, as long as it doesn't say F**der or G**son on it. If it has an actual logo, that is the tipping point that makes it counterfeit and wrong. :messedup
-It is not ok for joyo or biyang to make similar pedals to other pedals that are clones or circuit tweaks of other pedals because
a) we think we might know that they might be built in a factory that might treat their workers bad, or might have child labor. Buying diamonds from other countries or clothing made in China (or any other place with rumored slave labor) is ok. Shopping at W**mart is ok.​
b) we think we read on a byo pedal board that this might be a clone of pedal x, but we don't directly have the electronic knowledge of pedals to really determine.

I'm still not seeing the logic

Two things come to mind here:
1)the elephant in the room where countries go to war over one set of dictators oppressing their people while China is left alone in its human right violations largely because no one wants to go to war with them​
2)most of the goods in many modern consumer societies are made in China....you can buy U.S. made pedals, but does it really matter when 90% of all stuff you buy is from China? :idea
 

flatulentmatt

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
2,647
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I don't want to brand bash at all, but it could possibly be to do with the fact that Joyo and Mooer, etc. don't really try to pass off their gear as original circuits - they know they are copying well established products, as do the consumers. I believe Danelectro (and again, I could be wrong) tried to pass off their transparent OD as their own circuit before it was discovered to be a clone of the Timmy. Similar thing I think with the Alpha Drive. I guess it's down to whether you want to pay extra for higher quality switches and other components - personally I think I would!
 

PaulC

Member
Messages
1,904
I wished I was left out of these topics. The damage to my business goes beyond the loss of sales due to cloners trying to run me out of town with my own product. There are people turned off just because they're tired of seeing the ethics debates and won’t try the products because of the baggage now tied to them. There are people loyal to the cloning companies that rip on me because they don't like their guys being picked on. It's a pretty disheartening thing to go through. I just want to make something cool and make a few bucks without stepping on anybodies toes, or trying to take money away from them. I know that’s not the spirit of capitalism, but I wished it was. You should be rewarded for what you do – not somebody else.

PaulC
Tim/Timmy pedals
Myspace.com/paulcaudio
 




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