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so wil we see a $500 unit from line6 anymore? Seems the pricpoint bar has been raised?

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by stratcat1980, Dec 7, 2017.

  1. phil_m

    phil_m Supporting Member

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    Yes, pretty easily, actually... If you're using snapshots, and you want to have multiple high-DSP delays and reverbs in a preset so you can use some in one snapshot and not in others, it is possible to hit the DSP limit on one path. When the new reverbs are released, it will probably be more common, though.
     
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  2. Dale007

    Dale007 Member

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    I don't think we'll see a $500 model from Line 6 that doesn't have lots of limitations, which is why I bought the HD500X at $399. I have always maintained a strategy of being one step behind! Lol! Whether it comes to cameras or guitar gear, people will always want the newest, latest and greatest. Not me, saves me a ton of money and if the next to latest and greatest can do what I need it to do, I personally look at it as a good way to go.
     
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  3. Dale007

    Dale007 Member

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    Got a Fuji XE 1 myself, great cameras and great color science!
     
  4. Jarick

    Jarick Supporting Member

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    Three things:

    1. Never been a Line 6 fanboy. I've disliked every Line 6 product I ever tried until the Helix. And I like all the competitors products too.

    2. Line 6 had a ways to go to build up their reputation to compete against the Kemper and Fractal units. Look back a couple years...nobody wanted to pay $1500 for a Helix when it was first announced...everyone thought it was another Pod HD and those only cost $500. Slowly (and with the LT for sure) people warmed up to it. And that leads me to...

    3. (and this is the long one)

    Line 6 had to change consumers' perspective on their products substantially. They were seen as a lower end product compared to the high end modelers out there. Helix really changed their reputation.

    So if Line 6 introduces a $500 amp modeler, what is going to be compromised to get there?

    Tone? That would tarnish their reputation again. Why would you release a noticeably inferior product from your flagship for no reason other than to hit a certain price point? That doesn't make sense. I suppose they could release a very low end version but it wouldn't share anything in common with Helix. I wonder what the sales figures are like for the Firehawk?

    Micro transactions? I suppose you could release a $500 Helix and then charge micro transactions for each amp/effect model. But is that a smart business strategy or would that put off customers?

    Features? LT is pretty stripped down already. As I've said before, I could see a Helix Mini without the expression pedal and with fewer switches/interface buttons. Probably the most realistic path. You'd be limited in terms of effects though if you kept Helix quality sound and a lot of customers might regret not just buying the Helix.

    Again, an effects-only version of the Helix doesn't make sense from any standpoint. If you have the same housing, same interface, same DSP, same algorithms but just leave out the amp modeling, that doesn't make money for Line 6. They already invested in developing amps, so just leaving them out and lowering the cost doesn't make sense.
     
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  5. prototype

    prototype Member

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    This. The converters, i/o, processors, and packaging is what drives up the cost of things like the Helix. $399 for software version (eventually will probably drop to $2-300) is a good get if you have a DAW. Live players would still have to pony up to helix or hang with the hobbyist crowd with hd500s and gt100s
     
  6. Digital Igloo

    Digital Igloo Member

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    Wait. A software version costs $400 but the hardware version costs $100-200 less? :confused:
    No one from Line 6 has said that. I've said we can't make HD500X for $500 (it'd actually be closer to $650-700 now). If something with considerably less hardware and sophistication than HD500X might result in a compelling box at the $500 price point, you can bet we've discussed it at length. If we were scared of cannibalizing Helix sales, we never would've released Helix LT.
    Totally cool, but it should be noted that one hardware component (out of hundreds) in Helix is amp model-centric—the AMP button. Literally everything else could easily apply only to effects.
    You keep spewing this nonsense and could not be more wrong. I can 100% guarantee you the only thing in Helix that was inspired by Roland is the MIDI Recall helper text above Knob 2 on the Setlists page (which is found on Fantom workstations but AFAIK, none of their guitar products). If anything, there are a few UI elements in GT-100 (2011) that appear lifted from HD-500 (2010), but knowing Roland's development cycles like I do, they're probably a coincidence.
     
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  7. Digital Igloo

    Digital Igloo Member

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    Maybe not no one, but not many, no. The only reason HD500X can still be sold for $499 is because of long term pricing contracts.
     
  8. DigiPOV

    DigiPOV Member

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    Its like Helix fans are living in an alternate reality. You can get a $99 Behringer Audio interface with the same # of IO and better s/n specs than the helix. The GT100 already made available the majority of Helix features for $500, and that was five years ago. Add a color screen, IR loading, and new generation of MCU, and the price still doesn't rise much, because those components are cheaper than they were last year.

    Processing power and ADACs keep getting less expensive and we are to believe some comment from a Line6 employee that making the HD500 would cost even more today? (Maybe if they had to source the exact same parts...)

    My take is that the HD500 platform was SO FAR BEHIND that they had to do a ground up redesign with everything except their models, which are very similar. The HD500s use as an effect processor was abysmal; it colored the tone and didnt have the dynamic range to be used in 4cm w an amp. It had a horrendous UI. It was basically a red bean masquerading as an FX processor.

    Boss GT100 already has the majority of the Helix features and a great UI. Add a price-equivalent (faster) CPU to what they used in 2012, should afford ability to run high resolution IRs, and color screens are probably less expensive than LCDs these days. THe next Boss flagship is poised to be everything the Helix is, but Boss already laid the groundwork over the past 20 years so they don't have to do a complete redesign and charge 3x as much.
     
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  9. stratcat1980

    stratcat1980 Member

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    are you saying if those contracts were not in place you would actually charge more like the 650-700 dollars?
     
  10. Watt McCo

    Watt McCo Supporting Member

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    If those contracts weren't in place, I'd say they wouldn't be continuing to sell the HD500...
     
  11. Bentayuk

    Bentayuk Supporting Member

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    Lol, no I meant the pedal being an addition to Native. So you’d be able to load a few presets from Native on to the pedal. That’s it.

    But as it’s already been pointed out, I have a distinct lack of understanding about the Helix system.
     
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  12. Watt McCo

    Watt McCo Supporting Member

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    To be fair, the behringer is missing a screen, footswitches and isn't housed in a steel case. And I would say that the capacitive footswitches are the part that makes the Helix UI pretty unique and intuitive more than anything else, an idea which certainly didn't come from Boss. But your overall points are fairly valid.
     
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  13. KeLynne

    KeLynne Member

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    Good to know. That said, about how much would an m9 sized unit in an updated casing, with the dsp power of the helix and full midi capabilities cost? It’s the perfect size.
     
  14. Dale007

    Dale007 Member

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    Shows how subjective these things are. I really hate the Boss sound and love the HD500 sound. So there it is. Tomato, Tamato. And the UI is not the greatest, but once learned it's easy enough.
     
  15. MatchFive

    MatchFive Silver Supporting Member

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    I do not see them being able to do the Helix amp models for much less than the LT.
     
  16. Watt McCo

    Watt McCo Supporting Member

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    Why not? A device that does amp models only, maybe an effects slot or two, like the firebox, wouldn't require any more hardware than any number of delay/reverb pedals selling for less than $500.
     
  17. Dale007

    Dale007 Member

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    I don't worry too much about these things and I think a great deal of these debates are overblown. I'm sure the Boss can sound great, I basically mean the approach and starting points of Boss units have never really done it for me.
    I've played mostly with amps, so if ANY unit can get me close to the sound of a mic on an amp I'm not going to hassle much! Considering that countless albums have been recorded with PODs, POD HDs, Sans amps, Bosses. Digitechs, Rockmans and other units that aren't the BIG 3 (HELIX, Fractal, and Kemper) - it really comes down to how the device fits the INDIVIDUAL musician, not that one is SO MUCH better. They are all really rather close in the final product. Feel is the one area where improvements are really being made, and with my use, feel doesn't matter much if at all.
     
  18. Digital Igloo

    Digital Igloo Member

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    Perhaps. After Roland founder Ikutaro Kakehashi passed away in April, some of the respected pillars held long after his retirement have already begun to melt away. One of those was to unceremoniously exit markets in which Roland no longer dominated (read: flagship keyboard workstations, rackmount samplers, multitrack recorders, keyboard controllers, MPC-style workstations, grooveboxes, studio mixers, portable digital recorders, etc.). Legend tells of Roland permanently scrapping an über-powerful flagship sampler days before the NAMM show because they caught wind that Akai was about to drop one with more polyphony and max RAM. These things happen, but any other company would just release their box anyway and spin the marketing.

    Not Roland. They're TOTALLY the type of company to say "Well, I guess let's go in a different direction." Like they did with ES-8 and ES-5. And digital accordions and cajons. And one-off pedals with JHS. And after decades of Mr. K insisting that analog synthesis was akin to looking backwards—an honest-to-goodness analog synth designed by Studio Electronics.

    Roland's not dumb. I can only imagine we've all had similar conversations:
    • Line 6: "Man, the $500 replacement for POD HX500X is going to be really tough. Maybe we should go upmarket with Helix and LT until we can figure out what to do there."
    • Roland: "Man, the $500 replacement for GT-100 is going to be really tough. Maybe we should go downmarket with GT-1 and MS-3 until we can figure out what to do there."
    • DigiTech: "Man, the $500 replacement for iPB-10/GSP1101 is going to be really tough. Maybe we should focus on the burgeoning pedal market until we can figure out what to do there."
    Aaaaaand... wouldn't ya' know it? No one's released a full-featured $500 modeler since. Probably shouldn't have written this so close to NAMM!

    For the record, I would LOVE to see what a $500 direct replacement for GT-100 might look like.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
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  19. Tmidiman

    Tmidiman Member

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    Line 6 and Boss don’t have to release anything. Other companies will step in. Where there is a true void it will be filled.
     
  20. Tmidiman

    Tmidiman Member

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    I’d love a new bean of any type. The last bean was a sad failure. Terrible way for last bean to go out. Helix bean, how about one last update for the HD bean that fixes the defective power amp modeling.
     

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