Source Audio C4 Modular Synth Pedal

rsmith601

Vendor
Messages
6,188
Dear Roger, my intention was not to hurt your company or directly you.
I have invested around 2500 euros in SA hardware, not counting the PC or Mobile that are shared between my other usages, and the next C4 buy (which could push to add a 3rd hub), that’s clearly not 100 k$.
But where come from this 100 k$ value ?
Because the concept I explained does not need so much change.
My intention is absolutely not create any conflict but just a proposal to improve User Interface in Neuro Desktop with a new view for an easier scenes management, certainly nothing that would lead to any firmware change in hub, One Series pedals or Soleman (which already works as I am explaining).
You perfectly know your products and this 100K evaluation must be based on something I am missing because I have been working on software since Zilog 80 and Motorola 6502 in 70s, working on various languages (asm, Cobol, Fortran, C, C++, Actor, Delphi, SQL, java, c#, javascript, html, css, etc. but this listing become boring with its perpetually changing world) and accompanying the huge progress made in software conception with better languages, frameworks and now the Network + Cloud ( paradigms that I learned from Amazon since they invented it and Microsoft since they decided to move all their skills this way, add Telecom experience in european networks for french, german and US companies).

Sorry but I do not understand how a new layer of user interface could generate a 100k project.
My suggestion is a basic conceptual change in data organization making scene not depending on hub but hubs depending on scenes. Simply.
I am sure that implementing it won’t generate more than one month x man work to adapt the actual code this way an everybody would benefit from it.
You could keep the existing hub views.
But add a global scene view.

I just pushed this idea to support your effort to stay leader on the market segment you choose regarding the huge skills of your small team (Bob, Jesse, Nathan and you, sorry if I forget someone and thanks to every one), certainly not the same as the last BOSS SY-1 or EHX.
Your products are more powerful but they show their full power when we start the Neuro Desktop App, for sure you will sell C4 and One Series for people just wanting to use the buttons on their surface (no disrespect in my words, I understand the concept and the various choices to make music, it’s not actually mine may be an error, future will tell) but in this area the concurrence is high (Boss, EHX and even smaller companies as SA) and gaining new users is not easy AND EXPENSIVE.
I have already said that I am ready to pay for a 'Neuro Desktop Pro', with extended management features more powerful than those on a classical and free Neuro Desktop.
Please don’t misbehave, every time and everywhere I can, I support your products in my language area of influence.
I really appreciate all the communication energy you put in this forum (and others I don’t follow), as said privately before I have been working on CRM concepts (being an adept of Paul Greensberg ‘s 'CRM at the speed of light', where he explained in 2007 that successful companies will design their new products exchanging concepts with their customers). And I know the effort you need to deploy. It makes a real positive difference with your concurrents.
I could create some pictures to explain my concept for managing the Scenes (through not only 2 but certainly 3 hubs for me after C4) in a global View, just a new kind of View without the physical separation of physical devices, containing all the effects connected to all hubs, without boring with hub management as it will be done in the background as can do the computer magic. It will be self-explanatory.
Last point, this concept will allow transparent migration from actual hub to a next generation later.
It is more complicated than it looks. I will respond in a bit. Warwick is visiting me today!
 

rsmith601

Vendor
Messages
6,188
Dear Roger, my intention was not to hurt your company or directly you.
I have invested around 2500 euros in SA hardware, not counting the PC or Mobile that are shared between my other usages, and the next C4 buy (which could push to add a 3rd hub), that’s clearly not 100 k$.
But where come from this 100 k$ value ?
Because the concept I explained does not need so much change.
My intention is absolutely not create any conflict but just a proposal to improve User Interface in Neuro Desktop with a new view for an easier scenes management, certainly nothing that would lead to any firmware change in hub, One Series pedals or Soleman (which already works as I am explaining).
You perfectly know your products and this 100K evaluation must be based on something I am missing because I have been working on software since Zilog 80 and Motorola 6502 in 70s, working on various languages (asm, Cobol, Fortran, C, C++, Actor, Delphi, SQL, java, c#, javascript, html, css, etc. but this listing become boring with its perpetually changing world) and accompanying the huge progress made in software conception with better languages, frameworks and now the Network + Cloud ( paradigms that I learned from Amazon since they invented it and Microsoft since they decided to move all their skills this way, add Telecom experience in european networks for french, german and US companies).

Sorry but I do not understand how a new layer of user interface could generate a 100k project.
My suggestion is a basic conceptual change in data organization making scene not depending on hub but hubs depending on scenes. Simply.
I am sure that implementing it won’t generate more than one month x man work to adapt the actual code this way an everybody would benefit from it.
You could keep the existing hub views.
But add a global scene view.

I just pushed this idea to support your effort to stay leader on the market segment you choose regarding the huge skills of your small team (Bob, Jesse, Nathan and you, sorry if I forget someone and thanks to every one), certainly not the same as the last BOSS SY-1 or EHX.
Your products are more powerful but they show their full power when we start the Neuro Desktop App, for sure you will sell C4 and One Series for people just wanting to use the buttons on their surface (no disrespect in my words, I understand the concept and the various choices to make music, it’s not actually mine may be an error, future will tell) but in this area the concurrence is high (Boss, EHX and even smaller companies as SA) and gaining new users is not easy AND EXPENSIVE.
I have already said that I am ready to pay for a 'Neuro Desktop Pro', with extended management features more powerful than those on a classical and free Neuro Desktop.
Please don’t misbehave, every time and everywhere I can, I support your products in my language area of influence.
I really appreciate all the communication energy you put in this forum (and others I don’t follow), as said privately before I have been working on CRM concepts (being an adept of Paul Greensberg ‘s 'CRM at the speed of light', where he explained in 2007 that successful companies will design their new products exchanging concepts with their customers). And I know the effort you need to deploy. It makes a real positive difference with your concurrents.
I could create some pictures to explain my concept for managing the Scenes (through not only 2 but certainly 3 hubs for me after C4) in a global View, just a new kind of View without the physical separation of physical devices, containing all the effects connected to all hubs, without boring with hub management as it will be done in the background as can do the computer magic. It will be self-explanatory.
Last point, this concept will allow transparent migration from actual hub to a next generation later.
This is what makes it so complicated:
1. We use a cross platform tool to create simultaneous windows and Mac compilations. It saves time in the end, but it has lots of limitations.
2. The Hub was originally conceived to add MIDI to the SB2 pedals. The framework has been creatively extended so far beyond what was intended originally.
3. The Neuro desktop has to interact with 3 complex external elements, all with their own software/firmware challenges. The Neuro database lives in the cloud, and we both write and read in a manner that cannot corrupt the integrity of your data. The Hub, of course. And then the pedal, which we must talk to through the Hub. Any time we make changes on one thing, it ripples through the entire system and requires changes in everything else. Sometimes this includes the apps too! Plus each pedal in our collection needs new firmware!!

Adding the Neuro database to the desktopofs a huge investment for us, but most of you wondered why it took so long!

Hope this helps to explain.
 

DR5Guy

Member
Messages
780
This is what makes it so complicated:
1. We use a cross platform tool to create simultaneous windows and Mac compilations. It saves time in the end, but it has lots of limitations.
2. The Hub was originally conceived to add MIDI to the SB2 pedals. The framework has been creatively extended so far beyond what was intended originally.
3. The Neuro desktop has to interact with 3 complex external elements, all with their own software/firmware challenges. The Neuro database lives in the cloud, and we both write and read in a manner that cannot corrupt the integrity of your data. The Hub, of course. And then the pedal, which we must talk to through the Hub. Any time we make changes on one thing, it ripples through the entire system and requires changes in everything else. Sometimes this includes the apps too! Plus each pedal in our collection needs new firmware!!

Adding the Neuro database to the desktopofs a huge investment for us, but most of you wondered why it took so long!

Hope this helps to explain.
Have you thought about open sourcing at least some parts of the desktop? This way you will be able to save a lot of $$$ by getting free code contributions/bug fixes/testing from volunteers. There are many people with Qt experience (provided this is the cross-platform tool you use) in the OS community.
 
Messages
256
This is what makes it so complicated:
1. We use a cross platform tool to create simultaneous windows and Mac compilations. It saves time in the end, but it has lots of limitations.
2. The Hub was originally conceived to add MIDI to the SB2 pedals. The framework has been creatively extended so far beyond what was intended originally.
3. The Neuro desktop has to interact with 3 complex external elements, all with their own software/firmware challenges. The Neuro database lives in the cloud, and we both write and read in a manner that cannot corrupt the integrity of your data. The Hub, of course. And then the pedal, which we must talk to through the Hub. Any time we make changes on one thing, it ripples through the entire system and requires changes in everything else. Sometimes this includes the apps too! Plus each pedal in our collection needs new firmware!!

Adding the Neuro database to the desktopofs a huge investment for us, but most of you wondered why it took so long!

Hope this helps to explain.
I understand all these constraints, but again what I propose is simply an UI adaptation, nothing to change to your existing XFace libraries and calls to address hubs and pedals.
Simply a correction in the UML metadata schema: make scene an overall concept, detached from hubs, hub will depend on scene not the inverse.
No many changes but huge impact on the ease of use when multi hubs, and independence from hardware.
 
Messages
256
Have you thought about open sourcing at least some parts of the desktop? This way you will be able to save a lot of $$$ by getting free code contributions/bug fixes/testing from volunteers. There are many people with Qt experience (provided this is the cross-platform tool you use) in the OS community.
This could only be a long term move, and it would be difficult to benefit from the first feedback before one or more years, certainly a win move but difficult to support related to all the documentation to deliver and necessary clean up it implies.
I first thought to this solution but regarding the size of SA, difficult for them to assume without some support or join-venture with an University or some similar org.
 

rsmith601

Vendor
Messages
6,188
This could only be a long term move, and it would be difficult to benefit from the first feedback before one or more years, certainly a win move but difficult to support related to all the documentation to deliver and necessary clean up it implies.
I first thought to this solution but regarding the size of SA, difficult for them to assume without some support or join-venture with an University or some similar org.
Jesse wrote the original Sigma Studio program, that is used by every high end effect pedal company and most pro audio companies. It is an epic piece of software work. He has assembled a great team of WXWidgets, iOS, Android, Windows, PIC, Python, and OSX developers. The amount of money and time we have invested in software per pedal sold is the greatest in the history of the effects pedal industry. We do not lack brilliance or even common sense. We lack hours in the day. I have been leading complex hardware and software development teams for 30 years at Source Audio and Analog Devices. We will continue to make things better and better based on the input I collect here. :)
 

rsmith601

Vendor
Messages
6,188
This could only be a long term move, and it would be difficult to benefit from the first feedback before one or more years, certainly a win move but difficult to support related to all the documentation to deliver and necessary clean up it implies.
I first thought to this solution but regarding the size of SA, difficult for them to assume without some support or join-venture with an University or some similar org.
Oh, and we will discuss at lunch next week. :)
 

ElliotG

Member
Messages
684
@rsmith601 I suggest you seek out and consult with someone that has maintained a successful open source project prior to jumping in.
A successful OSS project requires a significant amount of work to build a community, and support a community. I love the idea, but for a small company the resources spent to create a successful open source program need to be comprehended.
 

rsmith601

Vendor
Messages
6,188
@rsmith601 I suggest you seek out and consult with someone that has maintained a successful open source project prior to jumping in.
A successful OSS project requires a significant amount of work to build a community, and support a community. I love the idea, but for a small company the resources spent to create a successful open source program need to be comprehended.
Agreed. There are no magic solutions in real world technology. At least, not in my experience!
 
Messages
256
@rsmith601 I suggest you seek out and consult with someone that has maintained a successful open source project prior to jumping in.
A successful OSS project requires a significant amount of work to build a community, and support a community. I love the idea, but for a small company the resources spent to create a successful open source program need to be comprehended.
I agree, and depending the way it is done it could be a loos of control on part of the project.
I am not convinced that this new open source project could involve a very large community, and here a large base of contributors is the only factor for independence of moves.
I never worked on open source projects initiated by small companies, they must exist ???
And I see the difficulties of a large company as Microsoft to align its moves to the proclaimed target of being partly open source...
Neuro Desktop is far from being a community project and changing this would be some herculean task, out of scope for SA.
We could only propose ideas to SA and may be they will discuss them at lunch ;)
 

AROOO

Member
Messages
2
Will I be able to control the C4 with the sensor out connection of the Reflex pedal (control parameters/MIDI clock)?
 
Messages
64
Oh Yeah! Pre-order all set for Tuesday! Interesting discussions about multiple hubs. It makes me curious what kind of projects/gigs people are doing that the need more than 128 presets. Of course I have more than that across all pedals but typically may use only 10-12 at a typical gig,so I load what I need to cover the set list. There's the app as backup if need something I dont have loaded. So far the soleman and one hub seems like plenty. Not critical of multiple hubs,just wondering....
 




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