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Source Audio Collider (Delay+Reverb)

slowth

Member
Messages
797
Comments here have gotten more technical.
I just hope the neuro app library has been getting more published presets. Less overwhelming for me that way :)
 

radiophonic

Member
Messages
175
Unfortunately, this doesn't look like a keeper. Sonically I really rate it - especially the plate reverb - but the MIDI implementation isn't what I expect on a modern pedal. It'll only take a single CC command - which I can work around but the DD-500 handles multiple commands - but there also seems to be a few hundred ms delay in PC commands engaging. I've never encountered this with other pedals, including my trusty Manta (instant response). I've contacted SA directly, and I'm hoping this is just a settings issue, but as things stand I can't run it as a post-loop switcher MIDI controlled pedal.
 

4b454e

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
5,460
Unfortunately, this doesn't look like a keeper. Sonically I really rate it - especially the plate reverb - but the MIDI implementation isn't what I expect on a modern pedal. It'll only take a single CC command - which I can work around but the DD-500 handles multiple commands - but there also seems to be a few hundred ms delay in PC commands engaging. I've never encountered this with other pedals, including my trusty Manta (instant response). I've contacted SA directly, and I'm hoping this is just a settings issue, but as things stand I can't run it as a post-loop switcher MIDI controlled pedal.
Collider has robust MIDI implementation.

I know there was an issue with PC lag but I believe it was resolved with a firmware update.

You may just need a factory reset and firmware update.

In any event, SA will get you sorted.
 

radiophonic

Member
Messages
175
Collider has robust MIDI implementation.

I know there was an issue with PC lag but I believe it was resolved with a firmware update.

You may just need a factory reset and firmware update.

In any event, SA will get you sorted.
I hope so. Although the single CC message issue is something SA have already confirmed and may be addressed in a later update. I thought the the neuro desktop notified you of firmware updates though?
 

Boba7

Member
Messages
364
Don't have the Collider, but I'm very happy with the midi implementation on the Ventris and Nemesis. Yes there is a slight delay when sending PC messages, but it never bothered me.
I don't think I ever tried multiple CC messages, so can't say much about that.
Hope you'll get it sorted out, but I feel pretty confident the SA team will make you happy. :)
 

rsmith601

Vendor
Messages
6,245
Unfortunately, this doesn't look like a keeper. Sonically I really rate it - especially the plate reverb - but the MIDI implementation isn't what I expect on a modern pedal. It'll only take a single CC command - which I can work around but the DD-500 handles multiple commands - but there also seems to be a few hundred ms delay in PC commands engaging. I've never encountered this with other pedals, including my trusty Manta (instant response). I've contacted SA directly, and I'm hoping this is just a settings issue, but as things stand I can't run it as a post-loop switcher MIDI controlled pedal.
There are 2 things going on here. Lets talk about each.
Multiple Commands: Yes, this impacts Nemesis, Ventris and Collider. Boss has a heavy hand in writing the MIDI specs, so of course their pedals follow the specs they have written. We had implemented things with the notion that one command would be coming at a time. To process a "package" of commands, you need to capture the whole package and then analyze it afterwards. In doing the EQ2 Jesse re-thought the MIDI implementation and made big improvements in this area. His plan is to go back to these 3 pedals and improve this aspect.
Preset Loading: Yes, dual presets takes a few hundred ms to load. There is a good reason for this. Most effect pedals we are aware of run one massive program, and all of the algorithms run within the same block of code. Nemesis and Manta are exactly this way. When you go from slapback to reverse delays, there is no pause, because its only changing parameters in the DSP. When we came up with the dual DSP approach in Ventris we had a big thought: what if we use infinite spillover to run one reverb program while another one is loading into the other DSP? This would allow for MASSIVE DSP power to be applied to each reverb engine. That's right. Unlike all of our competition who can only apply 1/12 or less of the DSP power to the plate, hall, spring, etc, we apply 100% of the DSP power to each. Reverb especially benefits from massive computational power (that's why the NI ones are so good: huge MIPS). That is exactly why the plate on Collider and Ventris sound so good. The downside is there is a slight delay in engaging the preset. If you send a PC and then about 100ms later you send another PC, then the pedal thinks: wait, do I finish loading what I am doing? or, ignore what I am doing and work on the next PC? Jesse needs to study the MIDI spec to see if there if this case is covered in the spec. He also has an idea to test that might work better than what happens now.

For 99.9% of our users these factors do not matter. Most of the 0.1% find ways around these things to make it work. With that said, we are still committed to making further improvements once the EQ2 has shipped. It would be criminal to give up the best plate reverb because of MIDI work arounds!! Hope this helps.
 

radiophonic

Member
Messages
175
There are 2 things going on here. Lets talk about each.
Multiple Commands: Yes, this impacts Nemesis, Ventris and Collider. Boss has a heavy hand in writing the MIDI specs, so of course their pedals follow the specs they have written. We had implemented things with the notion that one command would be coming at a time. To process a "package" of commands, you need to capture the whole package and then analyze it afterwards. In doing the EQ2 Jesse re-thought the MIDI implementation and made big improvements in this area. His plan is to go back to these 3 pedals and improve this aspect.
Preset Loading: Yes, dual presets takes a few hundred ms to load. There is a good reason for this. Most effect pedals we are aware of run one massive program, and all of the algorithms run within the same block of code. Nemesis and Manta are exactly this way. When you go from slapback to reverse delays, there is no pause, because its only changing parameters in the DSP. When we came up with the dual DSP approach in Ventris we had a big thought: what if we use infinite spillover to run one reverb program while another one is loading into the other DSP? This would allow for MASSIVE DSP power to be applied to each reverb engine. That's right. Unlike all of our competition who can only apply 1/12 or less of the DSP power to the plate, hall, spring, etc, we apply 100% of the DSP power to each. Reverb especially benefits from massive computational power (that's why the NI ones are so good: huge MIPS). That is exactly why the plate on Collider and Ventris sound so good. The downside is there is a slight delay in engaging the preset. If you send a PC and then about 100ms later you send another PC, then the pedal thinks: wait, do I finish loading what I am doing? or, ignore what I am doing and work on the next PC? Jesse needs to study the MIDI spec to see if there if this case is covered in the spec. He also has an idea to test that might work better than what happens now.

For 99.9% of our users these factors do not matter. Most of the 0.1% find ways around these things to make it work. With that said, we are still committed to making further improvements once the EQ2 has shipped. It would be criminal to give up the best plate reverb because of MIDI work arounds!! Hope this helps.
OK that makes sense, but I think the second bit is only a problem because of the first most of the time. What I want to be able to do from my loop switcher is to send a CC message to say 'turn both switches off' or 'turn both switches on'. What I'm having to do is load up a 'disengaged' patch for every non-delay loop program, and then load up the required dual patch and wait for it to engage when I need delay/reverb. Wouldn't it be the case, that if the patch was already loaded up and all I needed to do was send the 'engage' message, the time cost would be a lot lower? Most of the time, I'm engaging and disengaging the same preset during a given song, so all the loading and reloading is clunky workaround to just sending on/off commands.

Edit. The major issue with this fix is that when the dual effect disengages via loading up the 'disengaged' patch, I'm losing the trails from the previous patch (I am in trails mode), so this isn't really a solution either.

None of this would matter if the Collider was in a loop, because I wouldn't need to worry about the double engage command - but it sits at the end of the chain and I rely on MIDI to do all the lifting.
 
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Gibs210

Member
Messages
8,280
OK that makes sense, but I think the second bit is only a problem because of the first most of the time. What I want to be able to do from my loop switcher is to send a CC message to say 'turn both switches off' or 'turn both switches on'. What I'm having to do is load up a 'disengaged' patch for every non-delay loop program, and then load up the required dual patch and wait for it to engage when I need delay/reverb. Wouldn't it be the case, that if the patch was already loaded up and all I needed to do was send the 'engage' message, the time cost would be a lot lower? Most of the time, I'm engaging and disengaging the same preset during a given song, so all the loading and reloading is clunky workaround to just sending on/off commands.

None of this would matter if the Collider was in a loop, because I wouldn't need to worry about the double engage command - but it sits at the end of the chain and I rely on MIDI to do all the lifting.
We plan to implement a bypass both midi command in a later update. Possibly an alternating bypass command.
 

rsmith601

Vendor
Messages
6,245
OK that makes sense, but I think the second bit is only a problem because of the first most of the time. What I want to be able to do from my loop switcher is to send a CC message to say 'turn both switches off' or 'turn both switches on'. What I'm having to do is load up a 'disengaged' patch for every non-delay loop program, and then load up the required dual patch and wait for it to engage when I need delay/reverb. Wouldn't it be the case, that if the patch was already loaded up and all I needed to do was send the 'engage' message, the time cost would be a lot lower? Most of the time, I'm engaging and disengaging the same preset during a given song, so all the loading and reloading is clunky workaround to just sending on/off commands.

None of this would matter if the Collider was in a loop, because I wouldn't need to worry about the double engage command - but it sits at the end of the chain and I rely on MIDI to do all the lifting.
Got it. I will share with Jesse. Hopefully this can be addressed in the update.
 

radiophonic

Member
Messages
175
Thanks for all this. I realise it's a bit specific! I'm not sure what to do in the interim - I have about 2 weeks left to return it under UK distance sales laws and although it's a winner sonically, without the dual disengage, I can't make good use of it - see my edit about the trails issue that arises from my workaround.
 

Brandon7s

Member
Messages
1,323
I just noticed what I think is either a bug or just a weird quirk to the room algorithm. I tend to use room reverb effects a lot since I do so much playing with headphones on through my modellers. I have been using the Specular Tempus's room reverb which is decent but that's about it. So I got the Collider and went through setting up a couple solid Room reverb presets and I have run into something that makes it unusable for very short reverb decay length (decay at around 10 to 15 in Neuro). There's quite a lot of lag between when I make a sound on the guitar and when the room reverb kicks in, I'm guessing the lag is between 60 to 100ms long since it sounds exactly like an extra short slapback delay! This is with the pre-delay set all the way to zero, of course (made sure of that). I like my room reverb to be subtle and short but with a generally high mix of around 40% or more, but I can't do that with the Collider since there's nothing subtle about a reverb sounding like a slapback delay; it's quite jarring no matter what settings I tweak. When the mix is set low enough to not notice the delay, then it's practically too low to hear at all.

At first I thought that this might simply be a limitation of the DSP hardware and that it isn't powerful enough to run the room algorithm with latency low enough to prevent this slapback effect from happening, but then now I'm not so sure. When I use Hall, True Spring, or Plate algorithms I cannot detect any latency between when I strike a note and when I hear the reverb start, even at 100% wet mix. Unfortunately I can't use any of those reverb algorithms as a replacement for the Room one due to none of the others having low enough decay times to be able to imitate it. So my current running hypothesis is that there's something about the way the room algorithm was designed that builds a pre-delay into it that can't be reduced low enough to be seamless (or even close to seamless).

@rsmith601 - Is this something that could/will be fixed in a software update? For that matter, does this happen with anyone else's Collider? The room algorithm is simply useless to me as long as it has this flaw. One can still use it for longer decay times without it being all that noticeable, but it's very obvious and sticks out like a sore thumb at low decay times. :(

(I'm running the latest firmware already, 1.08, by the way, and I recently performed a factory reset).
 
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