Speaker wattage question - two cabs in Dual Showman

macrossgeorge

Gold Supporting Member
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806
My latest GAS is for a blackface Dual Showman. I have not yet acquired said specimen however I am on the hunt and have a couple of good leads (plus I cant buy for a couple weeks anyway). Playing an outdoor gig with my band last weekend with my 1972 Pro Reverb with ext cab (loaded with Jensen Blackbird) sounded great but I did not get enough clean headroom for this loud outdoor gig. Plus the weight of the Pro Reverb with my back problems has been leading me to a showman or dual showman for plenty of clean headroom and fender sparkly cleans.

I am leaning towards the dual showman because I am planning to use the 1x12 cab I do have that is loaded with the Jensen Blackbird which I love but I did not love it as the only cab on the Pro Reverb but it sounds amazing along with the internal speakers. If I had a chance I would try a (single) showman through the 1x12 blackbird but finding something to try out locally is a challenge so far. Plus I think having some more speakers would give it a better tone. At the same time I am trying to get a rig that has both massive clean headroom as well as better on my back so using a vintage dual showman cab or even any of those old piggyback cabs would not be great for me.

To pair with the Dual Showman and the 1x12 blackbird cab I am thinking of possibly a 2x10 cab to fit under the head or a light and wide 1X12 cab. My blackbird cab is not wide enough to put the head on top of and it shines best either raised or slanted so I am thinking of a new cab on the bottom, then the dual showman on top of that rig and then put my current 1x12 blackbird cab on top of all that (cab and head) or to put lean back legs on the blackbird cab to slant and put next to it.

Since the dual showman wants to see a total 4 ohm load, having two 8 ohm cabinets is the plan. Also the Dual Showman is rated at 85 - 100 watts I believe. My current blackbird is 8 ohm and has a 100 watt power handling so it should be good.

The question is what power handling would the other speaker(s) need to be? For instance if I did go with a second 12" speaker would a 50 watt be sufficient when paired with the blackbird or would it also need to be 100 watts? Likewise if I went with two 10" would they each need to be 50 watts or would two 25 watters be okay here?

Thanks for your help.
 

zenas

Member
Messages
8,697
If I'm thinking right when you pair two speakers in parrallel with different wattage ratings the overall all rating is double the lowest speakers. So a 100 watt and 50 watt would only have a 100 rating.
Seems to make since because both speakers should get half the load and one is only 50 watts.
But this is the Gear Page so this discussion get get pretty long. :)
 

macrossgeorge

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
806
Thanks for your responses so far. So probably best to ether pair my single 100 watt 12" speaker with another 100 watt 12" speaker or pair it with two 50 watt 10" speakers. Right?
 

zenas

Member
Messages
8,697
One of my Twin Reverbs has a Greenback and a Creamback. The later is 65 or 75 watts and the former 25.
So it's HORRIBLY under "wattaged" for an 85 watt amp. However I'm not going to crank it up enough to hurt anything. And if I do? It ain't exactly hard to recone a speaker and the GB is a MIC one I got cheap due to a damaged cone.
If you do crank that Showman then you definitely want the wattage handling for it.
But keep in mind the big four tube Fenders almost never had speakers that the amps couldn't blow if you cranked um. Most people must not of cranked um because you still see them with Oxfords, Jensens, Utahs, Rolas, Pyles and JBL D120Fs. (orange ones are probably stronger than the earlier gray ones) None of those would last if you cranked um very long like Santana.
 

MoBigBro

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
386
Macrossgeorge:
I have a '64 dual showman (labeled just Showman, but with the 4ohm Output Transformer).
I think you are on the right track looking for smaller cabinets than the original gargantuan 2X15 Blackface Cabs.

I have settled on my favorite set-up being 2) 1X15 mojotone cabs: one with an Eminence Big Ben (8ohms) and the other with an Eminence Legend 1518 (8ohms). These are in the Mojotone 2X12 sized cabinets. They are lighter with a 15" speaker than most 2X12s.
The logistics of this rig would be similar to your 1X12 plus 2X10. Three items to carry, but none will break your back....
I like the sound of the 15" speakers and I like the thought that they are similar to the format of the original blackface 2X15s.
You might consider a 1X15 to go with your 1X12. There are a lot of very cool newer 15" speakers including Neodymium speakers.

With that said, I have played the Dual Showman through a 1X12 paired with a 2X10 and it also sounded great!
The 12" speaker is a Classic Lead 80W 8ohm and the 2X10 has 2) G10 Greenbacks: 30W at 160hm.
To do the math: The 2) 30W 16ohm G10s in parallel produce a 60W-8ohm 2X10 cabinet. Pairing that (in parallel) with an 80W- 8ohm 1X12 produces a total of 120W at 4ohms.... Slightly under powered, but I didn't crank it!

The Showman is the sound of a Twin Reverb (without the Reverb) and speaker choices and combinations give you many "flavors" to choose from. (And hauling a BFTR is also a back breaker).

One other thought: To save trips, you could load your 1X12 with a single 12" speaker (if you get the ohms and power handling right): I'm thinking of an EVM12L clone with 200W rating: I don't think that the actual EVM12L is available in 4ohm, but some manufacturers will do a custom order speaker (like an EVM12L Clone) with non-standard ohms.

I have a 100W 1X12 combo amp that has great clean and over-driven tones: at some point in the future, I'm going to try an EVM12L in it!

Have a blast trying out your many choices!
Cheers,
MoBigBro.
 
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macrossgeorge

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
806
Macrossgeorge:
I have a '64 dual showman (labeled just Showman, but with the 4ohm Output Transformer).
I think you are on the right track looking for smaller cabinets than the original gargantuan 2X15 Blackface Cabs.

I have settled on my favorite set-up being 2) 1X15 mojotone cabs: one with an Eminence Big Ben (8ohms) and the other with an Eminence Legend 1518 (8ohms). These are in the Mojotone 2X12 sized cabinets. They are lighter with a 15" speaker than most 2X12s.
The logistics of this rig would be similar to your 1X12 plus 2X10. Three items to carry, but none will break your back....
I like the sound of the 15" speakers and I like the thought that they are similar to the format of the original blackface 2X15s.
You might consider a 1X15 to go with your 1X12. There are a lot of very cool newer 15" speakers including Neodymium speakers.

With that said, I have played the Dual Showman through a 1X12 paired with a 2X10 and it also sounded great!
The 12" speaker is a Classic Lead 80W 8ohm and the 2X10 has 2) G10 Greenbacks: 30W at 160hm.
To do the math: The 2) 30W 16ohm G10s in parallel produce a 60W-8ohm 2X10 cabinet. Pairing that (in parallel) with an 80W- 8ohm 1X12 produces a total of 120W at 4ohms.... Slightly under powered, but I didn't crank it!

The Showman is the sound of a Twin Reverb (without the Reverb) and speaker choices and combinations give you many "flavors" to choose from. (And hauling a BFTR is also a back breaker).

One other thought: To save trips, you could load your 1X12 with a single 12" speaker (if you get the ohms and power handling right): I'm thinking of an EVM12L clone with 200W rating: I don't think that the actual EVM12L is available in 4ohm, but some manufacturers will do a custom order speaker (like an EVM12L Clone) with non-standard ohms.

I have a 100W 1X12 combo amp that has great clean and over-driven tones: at some point in the future, I'm going to try an EVM12L in it!

Have a blast trying out your many choices!
Cheers,
MoBigBro.
Thanks sonmuch MoBigBro! This is really helpful. Going to look into those 15” speakers too now.
 

Mattbedrock

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
4,734
I have a BF Dual Showman. I think it is one of the last Blackfaces made, the circuit appears original but it is a mis mash of AA763 and AC568 features.

I measured it's output at about 85 watts and I'm running it into a refrigerator sized Dual Showman cab with 2 JBL D130f's. Sounds great but it's a back breaker.

I have also run it into a Bassman cab with Jensen C12ks in it. They're rated at 100 watts each and easily took the pounding.

You must be playing a heck of a venue at Dick Dale volumes to use one of these beasts.
 

macrossgeorge

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
806
I have a BF Dual Showman. I think it is one of the last Blackfaces made, the circuit appears original but it is a mis mash of AA763 and AC568 features.

I measured it's output at about 85 watts and I'm running it into a refrigerator sized Dual Showman cab with 2 JBL D130f's. Sounds great but it's a back breaker.

I have also run it into a Bassman cab with Jensen C12ks in it. They're rated at 100 watts each and easily took the pounding.

You must be playing a heck of a venue at Dick Dale volumes to use one of these beasts.
How do you like the tone of the Jensen C12K with the DualShowman? That is one of the speakers I am looking into pairing with my blackbird for this set up. Also looking at the C12K-2 but the Fender Deluxe George Bensen extension cabinet is a good value at $400 loaded with a C12K and this head would just fit on top of that. Probably top of my list right now. I would probably prefer a 2x10 cab but it would cost more over all and not sure which 50 watt 10" speakers I would put in there if I did.

And yes, outdoor venues just demand so much more volume and I like my vintage fender tube amp sound to stay clean (I add pedals for my dirt). My silverface Pro Reverb starts breaking up around 4/5 and I had to put the volume up to 7 for part of this gig. The other guitarist in the band, we switch off playing bass and guitar, his strat was overdriving much harder at 5 than mine (both single coils). We have a loud drummer and (we both play) bass, percussion section, keys, vocals, trumpet and can get quite loud but this outdoor venue definitely demanded more volume than normal. That said I have already gotten too broken up at a jam in a recording studio with this amp. Of course many people specifically want tube break up early on and it is nice but just not the sound I am going for right now.

What I am thinking of doing is for smaller gigs and jams to pull two power tubes and use one cabinet and then for bigger shows to use all 4 6L6 tubes and both cabinets.
 
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Mattbedrock

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
4,734
I really like the sound of the C12k. In the closed back Bassman cab, it is super punchy but it has plenty of top end as well. I chose it so I could play either guitar or bass with the cab. I have both a blackface Bassman as well as a Blonde one that I can use for either guitar or bass.

I also use my Dual Showman for bass as well.
 

gldtp99

Member
Messages
3,802
I'm using a BF Showman running into an open backed Avatar 2x12 cab loaded with Celestion G12K-85's.

I was trying to use a BF Bandmaster running into a BF Tremolux type closed back 2x10 loaded with Reverend Alltone 1025's.

I liked the Bandmaster/2x10 rig but wasn't getting quite enough clean headroom for my situation (loud drummer) so I upgraded to the BF Showman/2x12 rig.

It works.

PS---- I replaced the stock 4 ohm output OT in the BF Showman with a Classic Tone 4/8/16 ohm OT I had laying around so I can run almost any speaker configuration and be able to match it up.

With the 2x12 loaded with G12K-85's I've got 170 watts of speaker wattage rating being pushed by an 85 watt amp----- pretty safe there.

I was running closer to the edge with the Bandmaster/2x10 rig with 50 watts of speaker rating (two 25 watt speakers) being pushed by a 40 watt amp. The Reverend Alltones have been pretty tough/reliable speakers and I wasn't turning the BF Bandmaster up into the distorted range----so I wasn't all that worried about blowing speakers.

I could run many other speaker cabs with the BF Showman but I like the 2x12 cab---- it's not that heavy and puts out a great deal of good sounding output.
 

macrossgeorge

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
806
I'm using a BF Showman running into an open backed Avatar 2x12 cab loaded with Celestion G12K-85's.

I was trying to use a BF Bandmaster running into a BF Tremolux type closed back 2x10 loaded with Reverend Alltone 1025's.

I liked the Bandmaster/2x10 rig but wasn't getting quite enough clean headroom for my situation (loud drummer) so I upgraded to the BF Showman/2x12 rig.

It works.

PS---- I replaced the stock 4 ohm output OT in the BF Showman with a Classic Tone 4/8/16 ohm OT I had laying around so I can run almost any speaker configuration and be able to match it up.

With the 2x12 loaded with G12K-85's I've got 170 watts of speaker wattage rating being pushed by an 85 watt amp----- pretty safe there.

I was running closer to the edge with the Bandmaster/2x10 rig with 50 watts of speaker rating (two 25 watt speakers) being pushed by a 40 watt amp. The Reverend Alltones have been pretty tough/reliable speakers and I wasn't turning the BF Bandmaster up into the distorted range----so I wasn't all that worried about blowing speakers.

I could run many other speaker cabs with the BF Showman but I like the 2x12 cab---- it's not that heavy and puts out a great deal of good sounding output.
Thank you for this. Very helpful. How does the Showman sound at lower volumes? Does it get good tone at rehearsal and small gigs volumes? I am so close to getting a Dual Showman and a second 1x12 cab. There is so much information and so many opinions out there. I have gotten recommendations to go SF Bassman 50 and others for Bandmaster and some for Showman. My concern is that I will not get enough clean headroom with the Bandmaster and that the Bassman 50 will be too mid forward (I like that scooped fender tone). Unfortunately not any specimens in my vicinity to try in person right now but I will keep looking at the local shops.
 

gldtp99

Member
Messages
3,802
My BF Showman sounds big, rich, and open (non compressed/squished).

I only play it turned up to @5 at the very most----- more often much lower----- it gives the big, open BF cleans I like.

I use two pedals---- a Delay (usually a DD7) and an Overdrive (usually my Keeley modded TS9)----- these give me the range of tones I like to use and keeps the rig simple.

If I had a more volume controlled drummer or could always rely on professional PA support, I could use one of my BF Bandmaster heads and always play at a lower volume level.

But this is not always the reality for me.

So I use the BF Showman and never have to worry about running out of clean headroom---- the Showman sounds about the same at very low volume levels (Tight, Rich, Clean scooped BF Fender tone).

I have other big tube heads that could give similar results ('72 Hiwatt DR103, '73 Marshall Superlead,'70 Sound City L100, etc) but I always find myself feeling more at home playing a BF Fender.

This may not be the combination that works for everyone, but it works for me.
 

macrossgeorge

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
806
My BF Showman sounds big, rich, and open (non compressed/squished).

I only play it turned up to @5 at the very most----- more often much lower----- it gives the big, open BF cleans I like.

I use two pedals---- a Delay (usually a DD7) and an Overdrive (usually my Keeley modded TS9)----- these give me the range of tones I like to use and keeps the rig simple.

If I had a more volume controlled drummer or could always rely on professional PA support, I could use one of my BF Bandmaster heads and always play at a lower volume level.

But this is not always the reality for me.

So I use the BF Showman and never have to worry about running out of clean headroom---- the Showman sounds about the same at very low volume levels (Tight, Rich, Clean scooped BF Fender tone).

I have other big tube heads that could give similar results ('72 Hiwatt DR103, '73 Marshall Superlead,'70 Sound City L100, etc) but I always find myself feeling more at home playing a BF Fender.

This may not be the combination that works for everyone, but it works for me.
Thanks so much! All of that really helps a lot. Sounds like exactly what i am looking for. It looks like there is a shop in town that has a BF showman, bandmaster and bassman and I will be going there tomorrow to try them all side by side alongside my pro reverb and using my own cabinet. Will report back.
 

MoBigBro

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
386
The truth is, you can't go wrong with any of these!
The Showman will have the most clean headroom.
The Bandmaster has a super sweet overdrive tone.
The Bassman has an awesome dirty tone.
Have a blast!
Cheers,
MoBigBro
 

macrossgeorge

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
806
Reporting back...
(hope it is not against the rules to put this post on two threads)

I went to the local shop that happened to be very well equipped with great gear.

I tried out the following heads all through the same speakers and the same guitar:

Blackface Dual Showman
Blackface Bassman
Blackface Bandmaster

Now I know that each specimen can have its own quarks and that two bandmasters for instance can sound quite different depending on many factors including tube brand, tube life, tube bias, and circuitry differences among other things so this is just about the three that I tried.

The Dual Showman was clean clear crisp and loud, exactly what I am looking for. Sure it is the stiffest of the group but it sounded great on both channels although the normal channel on the left (the one without vibrato) sounded warmer and sweeter than the vibrato channel and also louder. The vibrato itself must have had a problem because it was extremely subtle and barely noticeable even with the intensity cranked.

The Bassman was warmer, fuller, less clean and not as loud but it was very nice and I could see why so many people love this amp. Just really sweet. The Bass channel was really dark but the Normal channel was lovely. However not enough clean headroom for my needs and a little more mids heavy, as I have heard, but not as much as I was expecting. I could use this if I was not playing with such a loud drummer/band for sure.

The Bandmaster probably had something wrong with it. It was dull, lifeless, not very loud and had some subtle crackling sound. So no fair for this specimen.

The speakers I was using for all three were my 1x12 Jensen Blackbird cabinet and also my pro reverb's internal 2x12s. Yes, I know that is not the correct impedance but well within range (in the wrong direction for a good mismatch) but it was good enough. But then I tried the Dual showman through my blackbird and one of the shop's cabinets which is a 2016 Fender Deluxe 1x12 closed back cab which is 8 ohms and yes, this sounded way better! Now I am totally hooked on the Dual Showman and also that Deluxe closed back cab. The cabinet I do plan to get from that shop if they still have it when I get paid in a couple of weeks. I might look for a better deal on a dual showman and hopefully find one with a vibrato that works better.

Wildcard amp = 1961 Brownface Fender Concert Amp. Holy mother of vintage tube amps! This thing was like pure heaven! Insanely delicious warm tone that is perhaps the sweetest tone I have ever heard out of an amp. Simply sublime! And the vibrato on this one is that harmonic tremolo that is an exquisite tube effect. I see now why these amps go for so much money. And this one was also really surprisingly loud and had great clean headroom. It was nearly 3 times the cost of the Dual Showman head though and also it is big and heavy. But this has made me a little bit bloated with G.A.S. for eventually obtaining a brownface fender amp some day.

So that is my report. I am going to get a Dual Showman and pair it with my 1x12 dual showman and a deluxe closed back 1x12.

I was hoping to post some photos but I could not figure out how to do that.
 

gldtp99

Member
Messages
3,802
I like Brownface Fenders, too.

Here's one of my Brownface 6G7-A Bandmaster heads:







The Harmonic Vibrato is a cool sounding feature, that's for sure.

Overall I like a good sounding Blackface amp better--- but I could "get by" with one of these if I had to---:cool::cool::cool:
 
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