Squirrel comes back in spades in Helix 2.81 (Tweed Nrm)? LOL

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by Mark Al, Sep 5, 2019.

  1. dmock66

    dmock66 Member

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    I played at church over the weekend with the Litigator model and the Prince Of Tone/King of Tone new overdrive models for my gain. I was listening very closely and didn't hear any squirrels - which I did in the OP's post, as well as other models in the Helix after that. I'm not saying that to be argumentative - just that I was really listening for them and didn't hear them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  2. VCuomo

    VCuomo Member

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    LOL, that's pretty specific. I was thinking in much more general terms. :)
     
  3. Guitardave

    Guitardave Supporting Member

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    Already crossed over and I understood that in my twenties. Wattage is largely about clean headroom for me.

    Point is that a 12 watt circuit can be pushed into the distortion range easier. Try taking a 50 watt Mesa and push it to the point the power tubes start to distort. It's way louder than my Tweed Deluxe.

    Seriously though - for all the sh*t people talk how many classic tube amps have you guys owned and played at the volumes where squirrels live? There is no way you can be around those amps to even hear them.

    I hear you - and I'll even agree that I hear some of the same thing if I dial the settings a certain way.

    Talk to me about where you hear squirrels in these clips:




    Seriously....that's an original Helix Tweed Bassman model. Very similar to the one in the last clip. And I'm using plenty of edge of breakup gain tones in both. And notice how much difference the choice of IR makes. Do you hear squirrels at EVERY moment or just at certain points. If they are some INHERENT flaw to the Helix you should be hearing them ALL THE TIME. I maintain that it's certain combinations of settings (including verb) that make them sound more prevalent.

    My explanation for why you hear less of them with Fractal/Kemper is simple - both of those work better at controlling the "unwanted" parts of how a real amp sounds. Models - for all the endless bickering - are tweaked until they sound "good" by the people doing the modeling. That's a subjective process. With Fractal that's evolved over time. I'm sure Cliff got tired of explaining to people why they are normal. It's no different than an amp builder refining a circuit so that it's friendlier. The Kemper paradigm sounds great - not sure if it really needed much refining. But it does things to the top end of the amp response which sound off to me. Great for recording/playing direct but it doesn't have the sizzle I'm used to. Probably a setting/parameter I don't fully understand.

    But I will tell you that my recording sounds way closer to what I hear in the room as I play my tube amps. And of course it would since it's me playing.

    Every play a real Vox? They are so difficult to tame I shy away from them. But they do sound glorious on stage at volume...in isolation I tend to hate them. And squirrel city...
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
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  4. Billy_B

    Billy_B Silver Supporting Member

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    This is another HUGE part of the equation. I think it's why I never bonded with an AC30TB or Twin profile - tried 100s.
    Hearing them on record gives you the sound but hearing one in its sweet spot live is a whole different thing. Crank up
    a real good live album gets you close.
    Back on point - it's impossible to duplicate the sweet spot sound/feel in a smaller studio/room.
     
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  5. JiveTurkey

    JiveTurkey Trumpets and Tants Silver Supporting Member

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    If we have transitioned to talking about squirrels in high gain amps; why in the WORLD are we still talking about Tweeds and Voxes? :bkw
     
  6. Guitardave

    Guitardave Supporting Member

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    It's funny but ever since I was a kid and started hearing studio vs. live recordings I always liked the sound of most live albums. There's always some studio albums that sounded more "real" to me and I love the sonics of a great studio album. I just never associated them with them as sounding like real guitar amps.

    This stuff is art and totally subjective.

    Gotta say I'm really getting curious why nobody is commenting on whether there are squirrels all thru my clips. If they are some constant aspect of the Helix they should be all over my clips. If not...gotta ask why not?

    Maybe some of you guys are great at conjuring squirrel tones out of your gear? :eek:

    But either way, it's ok to disagree. It's just gear. I've had the same conversation going on with @mbenigni for four years and I don't think the basic points of view have changed. :D
     
  7. dmock66

    dmock66 Member

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    I listened to those clips - sounded pretty good to me.

    I tried a few amps using the same cabinet - the Interstate 2x12. I heard the artifacts on many amps - but not on the Litigator. I messed around with the Bias, Hum and Ripple controls to try to minimize the impact - did all that with no reverb on to eliminate that variable. I want to experiment more with this - see if there are some amp models that respond better/worse - and if the cabinet/IR can make a difference.
     
  8. scook

    scook Member

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    Yup...

    Great clip btw. Dig the vibe!
     
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  9. Billy_B

    Billy_B Silver Supporting Member

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    I decided this morning that I'll discuss the little bastards, but I'm not going to go looking for them anymore.
    I threw plenty of cash and serious time into digital amps and still the little critters are there for me. That's the bottom line.
     
  10. Jdstrat

    Jdstrat Silver Supporting Member

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    Is it really you?
     
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  11. Watt McCo

    Watt McCo Member

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    Squirrel talk brings out all sorts of mythical creatures.
     
  12. scook

    scook Member

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    #mythicalstatus
     
  13. Yek

    Yek Member

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    We have had these discussions at the Fractal Audio forum too. The phenomenon is often called "crackle". It's authentic.

    The wiki refers to it as a side-effect of the initial attack, which halts but not gradually, it kind of stutters before it stops. Best heard when playing a clean amp / model at high master volume, and letting chords decay. Some amps / models exhibit this behavior more than others.

    And it's certainly something that occurs in real tube amps too. Lots of recordings of tube amps demonstrate this. You won't hear it from your traditional amp in the room because the distance to the speaker and the angle mask it. Close-miking for recording makes it more apparent because it adds high content. Digital modelers mostly use IRs (close-miking), so people tend to attribute crackle to "digital", but that's nonsense.

    Here's much more info:
    http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2...ortion.2C_crossover_distortion.2C_papery_buzz
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  14. Cool Hand Luke

    Cool Hand Luke Member

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    Great playing. And I hear what you are talking about. That sound drove me crazy with my HD and my XT. However, I am not sure I would hear it if I wasn't using headphones as I am now.
     
  15. Billy_B

    Billy_B Silver Supporting Member

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    You are welcome to this opinion but I strongly disagree. The particular timbre of the initial decay attribute that many have very accurately described is unique to digital. There's too many in this thread alone in a agreement that it's a digital anomaly regardless of the model.
     
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  16. mbenigni

    mbenigni Member

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    OMG @scook is here!

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. djd100

    djd100 Member

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    As a German Shepherd Rescue volunteer and trainer I know a thing or two about "SQUIRRELS", which is that my dogs love them in all manner of ways, i.e. to chase or as a snack.

    Now, I have 11 tube amps and preamps, and the studio has another 5, and out of those 16 tube amps none of them have any thing remotely sounding like Squirrels, and I can prove it as my dogs have no interest in them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
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  18. mbenigni

    mbenigni Member

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    Seriously though - that's not helpful.

    More than zero. Which is enough experience to tell me that a sound that occurs across all models (though more or less masked in some of them) is an issue.

    How on earth did you arrive at this argument that conclusion x requires condition y? It's completely arbitrary. It has been said again and again and again for four years running that the squirrels are problematic at specific points in a note/ chord's ADSR curve. Just not the right points. :dunno

    And no one would argue with you. Unless they were arguing that they didn't exist in the first place. Which you might, shortly. ;)

    Specific vs. systemic. Again. (Notably, I have never even considered buying a Vox, for this very reason.)

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
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  19. JiveTurkey

    JiveTurkey Trumpets and Tants Silver Supporting Member

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    Not everyone is playing a tele with the volume knob on three, the tone knob on 6 into a Minotaur with the gain on 1 into some amp I'd never be caught dead playing in real life with the gain on two. Of course there aren't going to be squirrels in those types of clips :rotflmao
     
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  20. mbenigni

    mbenigni Member

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    Fair enough. I did just click around through your clips very briefly, and I have to admit, I'm not hearing anything problematic; sounds great. I'll have to give a better listen later. Ideally, I'd play these presets with my own hands. Anyway, maybe you've got a handle on dialing things in, whereas I remain "great at conjuring squirrel tones out of my gear". Jury's out for the moment. Will listen again when I have more time.

    This is why I'm more interested in playing a preset myself and listening in person, rather than giving my thumbs up/ thumbs down on basis of any given recording. Yes, a good player can and eventually will dance around a problem - but he/she shouldn't have to.

    Except when there are... You'd be surprised.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
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