Stereo input dual amp option - a necessary feature for an amp modeler/profiler?

Stereo Input & Dual Amp Operation - a default design feature on all amp modeling/profiling pedals


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Guitar Magic

Member
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104
Hopefully this post will serve the guitar community. The intent is not to criticize anyone or any company, but instead to clear the air on what I think many feel is a misunderstood feature that has rapidly emerged in recent years. Perhaps the conversation here can provide some clarity and a much needed reference for makers of future amp simulation pedals, floor units and rack units.

Some recent releases in the amp modeling/amp profiling world are lacking stereo input functionality. Based on observable trends over the last several years, this may not only be looked at as an oversight, but even a design error with this type of product. Some detailed explanation as to why this is necessary is in order and I will get to that. First, consider that industry leading amp simulation products over the past few years have evolved quickly, establishing stereo inputs as a standard feature.


The list:

01. Strymon Iridium
02. Line 6 HX Stomp
03. Walrus Audio ACS-1
04. Universal Audio Ruby
05. Universal Audio Dream
06. Universal Audio Woodrow
07. Fractal Audio Axe-Fx
08. Fractal Audio Axe-Fx II
09. Fractal Audio Axe-Fx III
10. Fractal Audio FM9


The History

In the 1980's stereo digital effects processors emerged from companies like Lexicon, EMT, AMS, Yamaha, Eventide, Alesis, Digitech and many others. These were studio rack units that offered stereo effects. Most of these units had stereo inputs and were designed to be use in stereo. These devices offered new, larger than life stereo effects algorithms that had never been heard before, enabled by the advent of DSP processing chips that designers could build complex otherworldly sounding algorithms on. Some companies developed new multi-effects units that could run multiple algorithms in multi-effects chains, all inside a single box. The Alesis Quadraverb may have been the best selling of these devices ever. The founder of Strymon, Pete Celi worked at Alesis and has revolutionized the way we use guitar equipment by further innovation and integration of those foundational Alesis developments by head designer Keith Barr. What used to require a studio rack sized device with a built in menu tree to access all of the necessary effect parameters has been distilled by newer effects companies like Strymon into smaller pedals with more complex algorithms controlled by a much smaller group of controls that have multiple parameters under the hood ganged to an individual knob control, thus making menu tree navigation unnecessary and generally undesirable by most users.

Musicians like The Edge, Robin Guthrie, Kevin Shields, Johnny Marr, Charlie Burchill, Robert Fripp, Daniel Lanois, Brian Eno, David Sylvian, Radiohead, Terje Rypdal, Sigur Ros... plugged their instrument directly into a stereo effects processor and then took the stereo outputs from the effects processor into a pair of guitar amplifiers. Technically speaking, it was an incorrect way to use the gear with obvious impedance mismatching, but putting digital stereo effects processors in front of a pair of amplifiers produced a very fresh and desirable sound that cannot be achieved any other way.

The sound of a long, lush, super wide stereo reverb algorithms such as the Lexicon Halls or the Strymon Cloud or the Eventide Blackhole become something very unique, when you run them in front of two guitar amplifiers. It's a sound. And... it's become a very popular sound.

It can be said that running stereo effects into the front of two guitar amplifiers is a popular sound, a unique sound of its own and the sound many guitar players seek out and use to create great music. Those who use this sound and have also placed effects in post, after the amp sound, in a mixing send/return system or in an effects loop after the amp sound know that the sound of the effects coming into the front end of amplifiers sounds completely different. Many describe the sound like the effects become more a part of the fundamental guitar tone, merged/glued to it, rather than sounding separate from the pure guitar signal. The limited frequency response of guitar cabinet speakers forces the effects to live within the same "sonic window" as the pure guitar sound, rather than beyond it or outside of it. In this way, often times the effects will live in the same space that the actual pure guitar is meant to live within a band mix or ensemble mix of instruments. Generally speaking, in a band with Drums, Bass, Keyboards, Vocals, the guitar's voice lives in the midrange and upper midrange area of the frequency spectrum. Mixing engineers often EQ the guitar by removing frequencies below and above the midrange and upper midrange, in order to give the guitar a stronger voice so that it will sit in a mix more effortlessly without taking up sonic real estate where other instruments in the mix dominate. Keeping the guitar effects within that limited frequency window, also allows the character of those effects to have a more present and distinguished voice that can stand out within the context of a band or group performance or recording.

Some very popular music genre's such as ambient, Post-Rock, Shoegaze, Synthwave, Praise & Worship as well as many film soundtracks use the sound of stereo effects going into a pair of guitar amplifiers. A very popular genre with many users here on the gearpage is Praise & Worship. The longstanding definitive trademark of the P&W guitar sound is stereo delay (sometimes 2 or 3 different delays with different settings, in series) followed by stereo reverb (sometimes 2 or 3 different reverbs in series) going into a pair of guitar amplifiers or a stereo amp simulation pedal. There are P&W players who deviate from this of course and use lots of other effects, but it can be said that this is the general common ground. This sound has also found its way into a lot of Nashville produced Country hits recently and has been adopted by the A-List Nashville session guitar players.



The Modern Player

The sounds that emerged in the 1980's, 1990's and early 2000's from innovative guitarists placing stereo effects processors in front of two amplifiers has trickled down into a very large sector of the guitar playing world today. A fast growing number of players are using stereo effects pedals and running them into a pair of "amplifiers", more commonly, one of the many stereo amp simulation products that will simulate the sound of two amplifiers inside one pedal or rack unit.

Leading amp simulation companies have responded to the needs of modern players by producing pedals that simulate the sound of two guitar amplifiers inside a pedal, controlled by one set of controls. Some of these products give you the option to have a different amplifier model or cabinet IR on each side. It cannot be emphasized enough that these pedals are designed to integrate into a pedalboard system that allows the user to place their existing stereo effects wherever they choose to, within a chain of pedals. The reason why pedalboards are so popular is because they give the musician/artist a canvas to paint on with the challenging promise of curating their own sound. A sound that informs the music each individual creates.

It could be argued that guitar players using mono guitar setups play styles of music that deploy effects more sparingly, adding touches of color and depth to a mostly pure guitar sound. There is also one player, a pioneer of painting with sound, using heavy effects into the front of an amp who is unfortunately deaf in one ear, therefore runs a mono rig because he can't hear in stereo. I have however heard some of his work that was multi-tracked and presented in stereo and it was so awesome. I'm sorry that you @splatt can't experience it in the totally enveloping three dimensional space like most of us.

Most players who use effects as a major part of their sound, do run in stereo because the stereo imaging and qualities of the effects available today are so incredible, that running in mono can be incredibly disappointing when compared to running the same effects devices in stereo.

Players who use stereo effects going into a pair of amps or stereo amp simulator will tell you that they also will run the same setup in mono when recording guitar parts, for mono or double tracking situations, where recording two separate takes of the same or similar part and panning them left and right can have a certain quality to it that is desirable as well.

There are very few players who own a pedal like a Strymon or an Eventide H9/H90 and run them in mono. The sound quality just isn't comparable to running in stereo. The placement of effects in your signal chain is a matter of personal taste. Not having the ability to run stereo effects in front of two amp models/profiles seems like the biggest design blunder of the 2020's.

In my opinion, stereo amp simulation is not a "feature" or a special thing for other companies to take care of. It's standard on every major amp simulation product now and if a product doesn't have it, the company is excluding one of their largest groups of potential customers.



The Nitty-Gritty

By making an amp modeler or amp profiler in a pedal without true stereo operation, know that you are making your product incompatible with the stereo sounds offered by most other modern guitar effect pedals.



Leading digital effects pedal companies are dictating changes in amplifier design and amp simulation design

The companies who design modern digital stereo effects pedals spend a lot of time working on the stereo imaging part of their effects algorithms. How wide and enveloping a sensation their effects can make a listener feel has become a mark of excellence. Up at the top of that list are Fractal Audio, Eventide, UA, Strymon, Meris, and GFI System. In order to actually hear what these super wide stereo effects do with the stereo field, it requires having two amps or a pair of amp models/profiles that can pass that signal through while retaining the stereo imaging 100%. Compatibility with modern popular stereo effects is what's driving the changes in amplifier and amp simulation design.
 
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ry-guy

Member
Messages
2,160
There are very few players who own a pedal like a Strymon or an Eventide H9/H90 and run them in mono

It could be argued that guitar players using mono guitar setups play styles of music that deploy effects more sparingly, adding touches of color and depth to a mostly pure guitar sound

I agree it should be stereo in. Let me say that up front.

But your post is way too long for me to read in depth but i will highlight these quotes and say that i don’t believe they are accurate or the full picture.
1. I’ve actually seen many players who use these effects in mono. Clubs, bars, churches.
2. I love effects and at home or recording love to use all these in stereo. But the number of times I’ve showed up to play at a bar or gig or church and they hand you one mic is pretty much all the time haha. Plus the level of effort from a soundman(if you don’t have your own) to match both your amps and mic them properly is probably not gonna happen. I couldn’t even get them to get one amp to sound like i want. So players can love mod, delays and reverbs, but playing the practical rig in live situations doesn’t always pan out.

That said, if you are going direct to board with no amps, it *should* be easier and more consistent to get a good live sound.
 

ry-guy

Member
Messages
2,160
But yes, even my Boss Core has stereo in and out and even can do a third output to send to a board, amp, or just the dry signal.

But it was also more expensive than the Tonex.

Maybe Tonex2 coming soon?
 

GriffinSauce

Member
Messages
204
But yes, even my Boss Core has stereo in and out and even can do a third output to send to a board, amp, or just the dry signal.

But it was also more expensive than the Tonex.

Maybe Tonex2 coming soon?
Honestly, I think this is a much more important thing to focus on right now. Coming from the Kemper it is shocking how annoying it is to get all the connections set up right (if possible at all) for different scenarios.

- globally set an output to cab-off
- "global" EQ and levels for output targets (ie. FOH vs monitor)
 

aleclee

A Tribe of One
Staff member
Messages
13,972
Voted no. I think the OP dramatically overestimates the demand and even utility of stereo.

For live use, FOH generally runs in mono and for good reason. Very few people in a live venue are sitting in a position for good stereo listening. While a little extra swirl for modulation might be nice, other than that, the audience doesn't get much, if any, benefit.

For recording, stereo isn't much more useful. Running a guitar in stereo limits the mixing engineer's ability to position the instrument in the stereo field and most would prefer double tracking to stereo FX if the desire is different guitar sounds left and right.

For goofing around at home, stereo can be awesome and tremendous fun but for "serious" playing, I'd consider it far from a necessity. My $0.02, FWIW, YMMV, etc.
 

Gazwas

Member
Messages
94
Amateurs with opinions... Yeah sure companies should listen....

Fercrissake...have you actually recorded your rig. Like for something that paid money...
I’ve been a professional photographer for 24 years and have long realised us pro’s stopped influencing what camera companies bring to market a long time ago. The guitar community is no different.

When the lions share of your target market and the people who’s money keeps the machines turning, the amatures with opinions who‘ve never recorded or been paid to record anything does matter.
 

YellowCat

Member
Messages
55
I think there is a market share for every kind of product.

If a person needs stereo in they won’t get a ToneX. Maybe. Helix, Fractal, etc.

If they don’t need, that’s ok, and they may get a ToneX. To each their own, I guess. And there are plenty of options.

To me, with due respect, this is the same thing as saying that every modeler needs a EXP pedal, because the Helix, GT1K and a few others have it, and Fractal is getting behind…
 

forum_crawler

Member
Messages
7,967
Industry leading amp simulation modules and proceeds to include youtuber darlings rather than the things that likely sell the most.

The stomp likely being the exception. As much as people feel like they need to bend the knee to fractal, they likely sell only a fraction of what boss, line6, and others at the lower cost sell.

The UA pedals don't even do midi... :/

Manufacturers like boss have a target price bracket since modeling isn't their bread and butter while others like fractal have to give you "more" to justify their existence. They all have their own reasons for doing what they do.

I can already see Boss's manual when they introduce captures.

Half-Stack: The capture of a British sounding half stack...

I didn't vote but would vote "no."
 

Chadjohneto

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
445
I think the original poster would be super bummed if they had to go totally in the box. I can’t recall a single amp plug-in (at least that I use) that is stereo input. You can run two instances etc, but it’s pretty much just like the Tonex. I personally think the way the Tonex works, it lends itself to its task - Amp (usually mono) simulation that‘s then routed to a track or effects, just like the mic sum in real world. I think this box isn’t going to be for everyone, but what it does, it’s does well.
 

Guitar Magic

Member
Messages
104
Amateurs with opinions... Yeah sure companies should listen....

Fercrissake...have you actually recorded your rig. Like for something that paid money...
Nice to meet you Ed.

The beauty of forums is that one can remain anonymous. In real life, I've worked in the music industry since 1998. I have gold and platinum plaques for several of the projects I've worked on. I started my career as an engineer working in the biggest recording studio in my country. I became a freelance producer and engineer in 2007 and left the studio world because there wasn't a lot of work for someone recording on Neve and API desks and mixing on SSL desks. That equipment became obsolete around 2007, 2008 because of Digital Audio Workstations as you know. I've worked with Rush, Prince, Tina Turner, Big Wreck, Econoline Crush, The Tea Party, Neil Diamond, Christina Aguilera, Nsync, Natalie Cole just to name a few out of long list.

None of these professional credentials mean anything today. The old industry is not well respected in modern times. I've also contributed significantly to guitar products, some of which you might be using or have used yourself. I work professionally these days as a session guitarist, playing on songs and film cues. I also do mastering work to supplement my session work and I have a couple of albums out of original music, distributed by a few different labels.
 
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mazdaguy

Member
Messages
520
Nice to meet you Ed.

The beauty of forums is that one can remain anonymous. In real life, I've worked in the music industry since 1998. I have gold and platinum plaques for several of the projects I've worked on. I started my career as an engineer working in the biggest recording studio in my country. I became a freelance producer and engineer in 2007 and left the studio world because there wasn't a lot of work for someone who's an expert in recording on Neve and API desks and mixing on SSL desks. That equipment became obsolete around 2007, 2008 because of Digital Audio Workstations as you know.

I've worked with Rush, Prince, Tina Turner, Big Wreck, Econoline Crush, The Tea Party, Neil Diamond, just to name a few out of long list.

None of these professional credentials mean anything today. The old industry is not well respected in modern times.

I've also contributed significantly to guitar products, some of which you might be using or have used yourself.

I work professionally these days as a session guitarist, playing on songs and film cues. I also do mastering work to supplement my session work and I have a couple of albums out of original music, distributed by a few different labels.

What a tactful and humble response. Welcome to the forum - need more of your kind around here.
 

Guitar Magic

Member
Messages
104
What a tactful and humble response. Welcome to the forum - need more of your kind around here.
"Amateurs with opinions... Yeah sure companies should listen....

Fercrissake...have you actually recorded your rig. Like for something that paid money..."


Consider the above comment to which I'm responding with facts rather than assumptions. I'm also not new. I've been on this forum since 2019.
 

phil_m

Trying is the first step towards failure.
Gold Supporting Member
Messages
14,732
Most players who use effects as a major part of their sound, do run in stereo because the stereo imaging and qualities of the effects available today are so incredible, that running in mono can be incredibly disappointing when compared to running the same effects devices in stereo.
I don’t think this is probably true… I don’t even think the Edge uses a stereo rig, at least not in the true sense. He may use a wet/dry sort of setup sometimes.
 



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