stereo pedalboard -- easy conversion to mono?

zwolf

Member
Messages
404
So I finally got a chance to grab my pedals and do some quick tests. What danonbass surmised from his listening tests is correct: The Flint DOES NOT sum to mono when you remove the right output. Run a dual delay from the TL via TRS into the Flint and you're only going to get one side of the delay if you unplug the cord from the right out on the Flint. I wonder why there is so much misinformation regarding this simple reality? I found TGP posts with Rick from Strymon quoted as saying at one time it would sum to mono and the other that it won't (mind you, the one saying it would was recapping a conversation with Rick so by no means am I saying that Strymon has been misinforming; the dude he was talking to could have been confused...)

Anyway, it seems to me for my chain of H9 > TL > Flint, the only way to get mono summing is to remove the right H9 out to right TL in, and then remove the right output of the TRS cable leading from TL > Flint. When I do this, I hear my ping pong delay. I suppose that's an emiprical test of mono summing - the ping pong? Hopefully there's nothing else I could be losing signal-wise. Haven't had time to listen extensively. This is a bit of a relief because I wasn't sure whether I had to mess with the Flint's internal jumper to get back to mono, a prospect that wouldn't work at all...

I'd still rather have a simple summing box somewhere on my board. Someone is bound to make this??

I still haven't heard any word back from Strymon...
 

thiscalltoarms

more gadgets than Batman.
Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
8,231
So I finally got a chance to grab my pedals and do some quick tests. What danonbass surmised from his listening tests is correct: The Flint DOES NOT sum to mono when you remove the right output. Run a dual delay from the TL via TRS into the Flint and you're only going to get one side of the delay if you unplug the cord from the right out on the Flint. I wonder why there is so much misinformation regarding this simple reality? I found TGP posts with Rick from Strymon quoted as saying at one time it would sum to mono and the other that it won't (mind you, the one saying it would was recapping a conversation with Rick so by no means am I saying that Strymon has been misinforming; the dude he was talking to could have been confused...)

I am pretty sure I remember the thread [edit- I found it and I do remember it!] that you are referring to as the misinformation where Rick said that the Flint would sum to mono. I believe in that thread that what he was saying was the Flint would itself sum to mono if you unplugged one of the outputs. It does not sum the INPUTS to mono, thus why you are losing half the ping/pong and why Rick said the Flint did not sum to mono from stereo inputs on several other threads. That thread where Rick says the Flint sums its outputs to mono is misleading because what really does it ignore the stereo ins and revert the entire Flint to mono when there is only one output cable connected.


Anyway, it seems to me for my chain of H9 > TL > Flint, the only way to get mono summing is to remove the right H9 out to right TL in, and then remove the right output of the TRS cable leading from TL > Flint. When I do this, I hear my ping pong delay. I suppose that's an emiprical test of mono summing - the ping pong?

The scenario you just described isn't mono summing- its changing all your pedals to running mono by unplugging the stereo jacks. That's always been the solution between the two options. But if you want to stay wired for STEREO and have your pedals still work properly in a mono rig you need a pedal that can take two stereo ins and balance them back to a mono output. The only one on the market that I am aware of is the stereo Wet, and I didn't ever try that when I owned it (dang it!), but I hear that it works... The upcoming Bearfoot Echoverb is rumored to have this feature as well, although Donner hasn't confirmed it beyond a few smiley faces to be definitely in the final version. I've never tried summing with the Eventides because I don't like their buffers and tone suck in my rigs.

Count me among the guys that would buy that Vertex Mixer if you offered it up for sale Desperado!
 

zwolf

Member
Messages
404
I am pretty sure I remember the thread [edit- I found it and I do remember it!] that you are referring to as the misinformation where Rick said that the Flint would sum to mono. I believe in that thread that what he was saying was the Flint would itself sum to mono if you unplugged one of the outputs. It does not sum the INPUTS to mono, thus why you are losing half the ping/pong and why Rick said the Flint did not sum to mono from stereo inputs on several other threads. That thread where Rick says the Flint sums its outputs to mono is misleading because what really does it ignore the stereo ins and revert the entire Flint to mono when there is only one output cable connected.




The scenario you just described isn't mono summing- its changing all your pedals to running mono by unplugging the stereo jacks. That's always been the solution between the two options. But if you want to stay wired for STEREO and have your pedals still work properly in a mono rig you need a pedal that can take two stereo ins and balance them back to a mono output. The only one on the market that I am aware of is the stereo Wet, and I didn't ever try that when I owned it (dang it!), but I hear that it works... The upcoming Bearfoot Echoverb is rumored to have this feature as well, although Donner hasn't confirmed it beyond a few smiley faces to be definitely in the final version. I've never tried summing with the Eventides because I don't like their buffers and tone suck in my rigs.

You're exactly right on both counts. Yeah, just looking for the path of least resistance. Might have to have another look at the Stereo Wet...
 

Desperado

Vertex Effects, Inc.
Messages
1,551
Count me among the guys that would buy that Vertex Mixer if you offered it up for sale Desperado!

Yeah, Vertex could make a killing selling some pedal board accessories,

You know, I've thought about several times, but keep thinking about how it will be received on the market and I don't know that there would be much demand for it as a lot of guys don't run stereo and might find this sort of gear too technical to use.

I'm am super stoked that you guys are into it, and believe me that I would love to make a production buffer/interface to do this, I'm just afraid I'd be sitting on them forever. Maybe I'm crazy!

Thanks again fellas!
 

baggas

Member
Messages
473
I'm am super stoked that you guys are into it, and believe me that I would love to make a production buffer/interface to do this, I'm just afraid I'd be sitting on them forever. Maybe I'm crazy!

Thanks again fellas!

You can count me in as well. I think you'd be surprised just how many people would be interested.

Though my ideal device for this would be a simple, inexpensive, small enclosure - 2 inputs, 2 outputs, no buttons. Runs in stereo if 2 outputs are plugged in, sums both inputs to mono if only 1 output is plugged in. Hopefully quite a low profile so it could be mounted underneath a pedalboard to save space.

Subscribing to this thread in case anyone finds a solution.
 

zwolf

Member
Messages
404
That is really exactly what I need. I'm currently running a lehle little dual at the very end of my chain to have the option for phase invert and the isolated output to deal with grounding issues. BUT, I don't need or use the A/B switching capabilities; I either want both amps in stereo or one amp in mono, don't want to switch between them.

I'd pay good money up front to have you build one. But I'll stop hassling you as you've been very helpful and probably have your hands full with your full board builds:) I still can't believe this simple function isn't already out there in an already available product though...
 

Boytbpc

Member
Messages
1,588
This is exactly what I'm doing.

I'd love to have:
Ground
Phase
Mono to Triple Mono (initial splitting of signal + Tuner)
Stereo effects loop send and return.
Stereo Out (Sum to Mono if only 1 output)

Make it long and thin like the MXR/CAE powersupply and make it strong enough so that pedals can be placed on top.

That's not too much to ask is it? ;)

That is really exactly what I need. I'm currently running a lehle little dual at the very end of my chain to have the option for phase invert and the isolated output to deal with grounding issues. BUT, I don't need or use the A/B switching capabilities; I either want both amps in stereo or one amp in mono, don't want to switch between them.

I'd pay good money up front to have you build one. But I'll stop hassling you as you've been very helpful and probably have your hands full with your full board builds:) I still can't believe this simple function isn't already out there in an already available product though...
 

awallace

Member
Messages
1,448
A Hammond 1590S size will work- that's the size we use for the ST-Mix and it's got 6 in/out jacks, 2 power jacks (for daisy chaining) plus a transformer, footswitch for phase, etc.

I'm pretty sure the 1590S is a smaller footprint than an MXR flanger.
 

más_fuerte

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
4,753
This is exactly what I'm doing.

I'd love to have:
Ground
Phase
Mono to Triple Mono (initial splitting of signal + Tuner)
Stereo effects loop send and return.
Stereo Out (Sum to Mono if only 1 output)

Make it long and thin like the MXR/CAE powersupply and make it strong enough so that pedals can be placed on top.

That's not too much to ask is it? ;)

I would love to have something like this with Ground and Phase options.
 

thiscalltoarms

more gadgets than Batman.
Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
8,231
FYI- to this right will not be cheap. Ideally the stereo sends should be transformer isolated as well. Probably cost more than a Stereo Wet (but it would sound better if designed properly and could combat all kinds of wiring issue!)
 

RockManDan

Member
Messages
1,891
might be easier to just get a cheap (sub 100$) and small yamaha or mackie mixer that has a couple of 1/4 in inputs and use that to sum to mono or output true stereo, simply by panning the inputs either to the center or to the sides....
 

thiscalltoarms

more gadgets than Batman.
Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
8,231
I haven't gotten one yet because board is in a state of Flux right now, but This1smyne does make a stereo sum pedal. It's $35 and it's in the Mooer size enclosure- it's the finger stereo summed mono option on this page:

http://this1smyne.com/shop/patch-bay/

Should work as long as the final stereo pedal has in phase stereo outputs, as the sum to mono keeps the reality phase of both feeds, so having both outputs out of phase would sound bad in a summed mono setup. I think Strymon pedals are all in phase on their stereo outs...
 

zwolf

Member
Messages
404
right on, might have to get one of those. could run it right after my lehle little dual so I'd have the option to flip polarity anyway. I can't tell just from the site that it does indeed sum to mono with stereo ins and only left side engaged - do you know it does this from emailing Dan about it?
 

danonbass

Member
Messages
2,528
I haven't gotten one yet because board is in a state of Flux right now, but This1smyne does make a stereo sum pedal. It's $35 and it's in the Mooer size enclosure- it's the finger stereo summed mono option on this page:

http://this1smyne.com/shop/patch-bay/

Should work as long as the final stereo pedal has in phase stereo outputs, as the sum to mono keeps the reality phase of both feeds, so having both outputs out of phase would sound bad in a summed mono setup. I think Strymon pedals are all in phase on their stereo outs...

How does the T1M box work? Two ins, two outs, sums to L when R in't plugged in? Or is it two in and one out?
 




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