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Steve Vai Weighs in on Modelling

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9,006
The ms latency reference video proves that latency in PARALLEL signals is perceptible at very low times. I think even 3 ms latency in parallel with the original signal has a perceptibly different attack character than no latency.
A trick I used to use in an attempt to beef up bass tracks back in the day: record the bass track dry, send it to an old digital delay I had, set for 10ms, send it back to the board and balance the two for the keeper track. Surprisingly to me at the time, it resulted in sharper attack (probably because you got two attacks for the price of one). But it was audibly noticeable, even to the non-musicians I used as test-listeners.
 

mbenigni

Member
Messages
7,770
What?? If you're trying to say what I believe you are then you should go back to school.
I think what he's trying to say is that there are a lot of complex psychoacoustics involved in the way sound propagates through air and is processed by two (count 'em: 2) human ears, attached to a head of defined shape, materials, etc, and a human brain, which has evolved to account for the fact that pretty much everything we hear is subject to these phenomena; versus a monophonic electronic signal delayed arbitrarily, then converted to audio and transmitted subject (also) to all preceding variables.

Or maybe :munch
 
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ejecta

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
5,950
Far from it. It'd be interesting to see the same test with some fast picking instead of slow chugging.

At the end of the day regardless of whether person X can discern Y ms of latency I'm sure we'd all agree that with latency being cumulative as you add multiple devices that perform AD/DA conversion along with distance from the speakers we'd want to keep it as low as possible before it becomes an issue.

In Vai's world he clearly feels a tube amp is the best way to avoid introducing more latency but above all he likes the way it responds. I'm not sure why anyone would take exception to his preference for the real thing over modeling given he's been performing with 100W amps for 40 years.

A good point was made earlier regarding the trio of John "Wapoosh" Mayer, Keith "Mannequin" Urban, and now Steve "Freeze-Dried" Vai who all triggered 20+ page threads here. They all play on stages where volume isn't an issue, they have guitar techs to keep their extravagant analog rigs running, and they don't have financial restrictions on gear like most people.
The rolly eyes should have said I agree with the" far from it". Sorry if that wasn't clear.
 

Guitarwiz007

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
1,721
Steve Vai is one of the best players I've ever seen. His skills are beyond question. Can he hear latency? Maybe. I don't know. I do know that as you get further away from your cab, you have more latency. I wonder why that doesn't bother him in a live setting. But, as I said, who am I to say what the man hears and doesn't hear. Hey, Eric Johnson can tell what kind of battery is in his pedal! My problem with Steve, and it's not really a problem per se, is that I HATE his tone. I've hated it since Flex-Able. I pretty much stay away from anything the man endorses from a tone standpoint. His Carvin amps were horrible. I did not like his Bad Horsie wah and I'm not a big fan of the JEM series guitars. I have to give the man credit though. He has influenced an entire generation of guitarists and has made a living at doing what he loves which is more than I can say for most musicians I know. So, I guess what I'm saying is that while respect the man and his playing, I really could care less what he thinks about modelling or no modelling for that matter. It's one man's opinion. If he's your guitar hero and you just bought the latest modeler and now are bummed because Steve doesn't like it, well I feel sorry for you. There are plenty of people in the business that rely on modelers both live and in the studio. Opinions are just that, opinions. Everything I've stated here is my opinion. Appreciate the man for what he has given you musically and play whatever the heck you want. Sorry, rant over.
 

Baba

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,961
Steve Vai is one of the best players I've ever seen. His skills are beyond question. Can he hear latency? Maybe. I don't know. I do know that as you get further away from your cab, you have more latency. I wonder why that doesn't bother him in a live setting. But, as I said, who am I to say what the man hears and doesn't hear. Hey, Eric Johnson can tell what kind of battery is in his pedal! My problem with Steve, and it's not really a problem per se, is that I HATE his tone. I've hated it since Flex-Able. I pretty much stay away from anything the man endorses from a tone standpoint. His Carvin amps were horrible. I did not like his Bad Horsie wah and I'm not a big fan of the JEM series guitars. I have to give the man credit though. He has influenced an entire generation of guitarists and has made a living at doing what he loves which is more than I can say for most musicians I know. So, I guess what I'm saying is that while respect the man and his playing, I really could care less what he thinks about modelling or no modelling for that matter. It's one man's opinion. If he's your guitar hero and you just bought the latest modeler and now are bummed because Steve doesn't like it, well I feel sorry for you. There are plenty of people in the business that rely on modelers both live and in the studio. Opinions are just that, opinions. Everything I've stated here is my opinion. Appreciate the man for what he has given you musically and play whatever the heck you want. Sorry, rant over.

I agree with everything you said, except, is it that you could care less, or couldn't care less what he thinks about modeling? :p:eek::D
 

Guitarwiz007

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
1,721
I agree with everything you said, except, is it that you could care less, or couldn't care less what he thinks about modeling? :p:eek::D
LMAO, well, I would have said couldn't care less but my wife says I need to show more restraint. Therefore, yes, I could care less but I'm saving the fullness of the caring less perhaps for a different discussion all together!
 

JaiRamana

Member
Messages
1,206
Fun Trivia:

Michael Flatley (of Riverdance and Lord of the Dance fame) was timed at 35 taps per second. That's a tap every 28.6 milliseconds. With his feet!

The official Guinness record for guitar is 27 notes per second. I'm actually surprised, I thought it might be higher. You'd think you could get more notes with hands than feet, but in tap dancing there are some tricks you can do with your feet that just don't translate to guitar/stringed instrument.
 
Messages
9,006
Fun Trivia:

Michael Flatley (of Riverdance and Lord of the Dance fame) was timed at 35 taps per second. That's a tap every 28.6 milliseconds. With his feet!

The official Guinness record for guitar is 27 notes per second. I'm actually surprised, I thought it might be higher. You'd think you could get more notes with hands than feet, but in tap dancing there are some tricks you can do with your feet that just don't translate to guitar/stringed instrument.
That's it -- I'm playing guitar with my feet and putting my pedals up on a stand!

In seriousness, if anyone wants to hear fast rhythms subdivided, listen to a good tap-dancer.
 

JPenn

Member
Messages
1,808
i watched this other morning...i'm still waiting for the interview. that was an infomercial on vai branded products.
 

jrockbridge

Member
Messages
4,495
Jeez guys, stop with the feet/latency thing. It's silly.
It is NOT the same latency and people making that argument make me think they never played live guitar....

Also any of the "He is lying, cause he has endorsements" kind of comments are....

Why did i even click this thread?

Vai Rules.
Vai is the epitome of virtuoso. He rules, I agree.

Regarding latency, it’s YOU who does not seem to understand. Latency is latency and you add it up with simple math (addition). Round trip latency is the delay between the time you play your guitar and the sound arrives at your ears. If you send a guitar signal into a box and it takes 2ms for the signal to come through the output, you have 2ms of latency (so far). In a digital box, the latency is caused by the time it takes to process the signal. But, if an analog box takes 2ms to process the signal it’s the same result. If you stand 6 ft from a speaker, you have about 6ms of latency. Therefore, your total latency is 8ms. In the end, it does not matter if the latency happens passing through a box or passing through the air. The end result is that you will start to notice a delay between playing and hearing at about 5-6ms of delay time.
 




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