Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by seigmen, Jun 30, 2017.
A valid argument if it were 1992. In 2017 not so much IMO. This is not a challenging task folks.
Yep, got it
Well, of course resources use has to be always weighted. Most companies put editors at a high priority level, and for two reasons IMO:
devices are often tricky to deep-edit, specially when their UI is very "vertical" (several menu levels);
users from USA and Japan (who I guess buy a lot of the worldwide production of musical gear) have been accustomed to that, so any new actor on the scene has to take this into account; in fact, most complaints about the lack of an editor I've read come from people from the US (can't say about Japan ).
The Profiler is something different IMO, reasons being
its amp-like front panel;
its relatively simple use concept if compared to other devices;
its being "European", which in this case could mean something like "thinking out of the box" (see above);
Eng. Kemper wanting to give his own mark to his creature, regardless how the Virus concept has been designed and developed.
In this respect, any consideration about these not being the '90s is secondary IMO: the way the KPA has been conceived has clearly (IMO) dictated its development guidelines; I consider the fact that the Virus line has been designed differently (editor and the like) a clear proof of a vision rather than a lack (if they had prioritized an editor they would have been perfectly able to offer one since day one).
This vision would determine all that follows: once you allocate resources, and once an editor is not high in the priority list, any development in that direction would be a resource-eater in relationship with the chosen approach.
I'd want to underline I am not justifying the lack of an editor, I'm trying to analyse it.
When musical instrument electronic devices started they were all hardware based. There was no so software, except potentially firmware updates. Certainly you couldn't get an editor for your Arp or your Marshall Plexi amp.
The first software you could buy for your synth was usually a librarian. The synths' settings were physically set on the synth first. Then they were dumped to the librarian on your computer for later retrieval. Later you used a MIDI dump from the librarian to tell the synth what settings were required.
Once the graphics built into PCs and Macs became good enough, software editors started to appear. By then, the devices had so many more parameters that the editor became essential to fully operate the synth in some cases. Soft synths and software based effects started to appear, and users had to use a mouse or keyboard to interact with the software.
Then users started to complain that they wanted more physical control and MIDI controllers with knobs, buttons, sliders, pads, etc. started to appear. But the DAWs, VSTi's and effects were so complex at that point that there was never enough knobs for your software. So you got pages. And pages. And more pages...
There has always been a conflict between having everything editable versus being able to access a parameter easily and at least quickly.
Fast forward to today's tech and you have the same dilemma. If a device is sophisticated, with really deep parameters that can have multiple types of modifications and you create a software editor for it, you will have to have many pages to cover everything. Add to that you have to design an interface that makes what the user sees on the page easy to relate to. Oh, and you will want to be able to map the editor to the physical controls on your MIDI controller. The KPA is just so deep, I suspect that an editor might be a waste of time.
I think I'd like to try an editor for my KPA, but I am not so sure that sitting in front of it and twiddling its knobs isn't a more creative way to program it.
Wouldn't hold my breath.
Can we please get some kind of Kemper Editor Software for your computer
it appears that somebody asked somebody something and something was replied in return. Let me just point out that
a) no official comment or announcement was made at any time
b) we don't know who apparently said something and what this person apparently said
this rumour should be put to rest, it doesn't help anybody. apparently. thank you.
So what I've gathered so far is:
An editor was never promised by Kemper.
Many people are demanding it but if it isn't free there will be more complaints.
In any future updates to the
KAOS file the editor would have to be updated as well.
Sounds like a major expense and maintenance job for very little return on investment.
That hasn't seemed to stop Fractal Audio, Line6 and Atomic.
What about an un-official editor? There's been a lot of that in the Roland world, guys developed better Katana software (which allowed effects to be ordered in any way, more effects than just 3, many other amp models etc). Has there ever been such un-official development for Kemper?
Yes, there have been a couple of free unofficial editors.
The original KPA didn't have an editor becaue they felt they had made a stellar interface (the lunch box)
Then there was a clambor for a rack unit and they met the demand with a 3U that made some compromise but also put the USB in the front. (wish my lunch box had that)
Then some folks wanted an editor, but the company said "no" as they fulfilled other wishes geared towards live performance.
And they met those demands (and still are meeting them)
So if they say they will make an editor, they will.
In the same time you'd have to have purchased several Fractal units to keep up. The Kemper remains the same unit delived back in, what, winter 2011/12?
Other units require an editor because their interface is very small.
That said, I prefer using Fractal's interface rather than the editor except for their pedal board where I do both 50:50
I've toyed with 3rd party KPA editors, many which showed promise, but haven't seen one delivered full-fledged (monuental undertaking I presume) and when I've toyed with them, they haven't given me a desire to NOT use the physical interface, which is faster IMO.
I hope they do serve up an editor. They made the library application which was a shock and has come in quite handy.
I wonder if an editor couldn't be a part of that software so there isn't several searate lineages to keep up with?
As a customer since 2013, they delivered everything they advertised, so I have no cause for complaints. And they've added much I didn't ask for that really helped. And the user base for profiles has ballooned into so many choices I can find what I need most often without having to spend hours tweaking. I can find a close profile and with 5m of tweaking get where I want to be. The parameters I've used to tweak are often no more than 5 amp parameters, all within a screen or two. For wet sounds I can see wanting an editor. But I pair with an FX8 there. I tend to run minimal FX tho, hence my reliance on an editor is rather minimal and I could live without it. (I've used it more to create fx placement than for parameter tweaking)
It all makes sense what you say. I just bought a used Kemper and downloaded the Rig Manager today, and I was able to export a profile onto a flash drive and then plug the drive into the Kemper and add it to the list of profiles. Couldn't get the Rig Manager to "see" my Kemper - and not sure if it's an issue with license or other sorts of settings. I don't think I'd use an editor much either - I've owned most of the major modelers and never got into the computer editing area as I need to be familiar with the hardware for practical playing situations. But what I find overwhelming about the Kemper - and maybe the Rig Manager addresses this - is just the storing, organizing and placement of profiles. Perhaps the Rig Manager does this - if I can get it working. The Kemper is a hugely impressive amp (I got the powered toaster), I'm shocked at the quality of the clean Fender amp profiles for instance, which I've not heard done as well anywhere in the digital realm.
make sure the owner name in the Kemper matches the owner name exactly in the Rig Manager preferences. On the Kemper push system then edit owner if it doesn't.
Thanks - works now. Yeah the rig manager is good.
I'm a fan of keeping organiztion at the file and folder level on my computer and perhaps a travel USB stick or at least a mobile service like Dropbox or Google Drive. I do this for music, family photos, etc. Because using software is a PIA over a decade or more. The software changes, adds or loses tags, or just might become unsupported (company goes out of business)
So for the Rig Manager, I keep a personal set of file/folders that are organized. Then, in the Rig Manager, i keep an organization and backup the Database for the Rig Manager so I can import it ot a new setup on another computer. I organize by Profile creator (ie SoundSide, TAF, MBritt, etc) but also keep a folder per guitar, so when I like a particular profile for a particular guitar (LP, Tele, Strat, etc) I can drop it in that box. Next time I pickup that guitar and am looking for a sound to record with, I scroll through those.
On my KPA, I keep a leaner setup. Performances are where I have setups for songs, or batches of like proflies (Ie Metal, Classic Rock, Songs I'm Practicing too, and perhaps a set of Zepellin, Hendrix, AC/DC, etc)
Well said man, and good advise for all to take note of here
You might want a plugin then for your DAW, not a standalone editor.
Thanks jpage, appreciate it
I'll forgive you for lacking the ability to imagine others doing things differently than yourself and try to help you understand:
People like myself play guitar in front of their computer/studio monitors all the time when writing, recording, and performing sound design.
Then again you might not.
I use Melodyne (4 now) and it doesn't work well as a plugin in Reaper so I have to use the standalone version. I'd much prefer tracking directly with the DAW.
There's been criticism of various aspects of the KPA: Why can't you record direct like you can with the FXII? Why doesn't it have an editor like the FXII or Line6?
Why doesn't it have Spring Reverb?
In the past, concerning an librarian, it was simple: "because it's an amp" meaning it was supposed to be standalone hardware like a tube amp.
I'm glad Kemper is willing to change with the times and all. I just hope they don't get bogged down on so many side projects they don't progress the core of the unit.
Ie delivering the Reverbs they said they would in 2016 NAMM
I've worked with many editors on amp-simulators in the past and because of the limited interface many of those were a step up in terms of quicker editing, especially for setting up live performances.
But the Kemper setup is faster via the physical interface for me.
Like I've mentioned, third party editors, while not finished, had some good presentaions but didn't make the workflow faster or easier than the inherant physical interface.
When I'm tracking in front of a DAW, I've haven't had trouble dialing in tones fast.
I could see a plugin being useful in that an exchange right there as a plugin would be cool to toy with while looping a section.
A standalone editor would make more sense when not tracking (as some folks don't like having to use a host, understandably)
And who is to say asking for a plugin is not the better option? Or shoudl be done first? Or not at all? We all have our requests is the point.
Bottom line, it wasn't a promised feature for years. It was hinted at being done verbally to a few ppl at NAMM 2017.
As far as features and requests go, it's a long line, and IMO not holding the unit back (if sales and professional usage are any indication)
I'm fine without it.
I'm just betting on that they develop one.
Thats the thing, I've not seen any official announcement, and my "pissiness" is not aimed at ppl wanting more, but complaints that the KPA is somehow lesser. I read similar complaints that the FXII has a difficult interface and so an editor is crucial. Well, the editor is amazing, no doubt, but the FXII has one of the most intuitive interfaces on a rackmount piece of gear I've ever worked with. If ppl think that's hard, they shoud struggle with 1980's rackmount delays.
The KPA is light years past easy-peasy interface. For those who don't have the KPA, the lack of an editor currently should be the least, last, bottom-of-the-barrel concern.
If it came with one I'd think to myself "Look, it has an appendix!"
I think those who DO want an editor should take a step further than just asking for one. They should start submitting designs for the interface. Because, trust me, it can be done quite poorly if not well thought out.
In that vein, what do those who DO want an editor want it to look like? How do they want it to function? Should it integrate the Rig Manager? Should it be available as a plugin?