Stupid CITES

Stev0Griffin

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Seriously. A few used Gibson R7's on Ishibashi's website for $1800 US excluding shipping, and the damn CITES thing won't let them sell internationally anything with rosewood.

I inquired about an R7 they had but they responded by telling me they didn't have the proper licenses yet for international shipment of rosewood.

What a shame.
 
Messages
1,841
Seriously. A few used Gibson R7's on Ishibashi's website for $1800 US excluding shipping, and the damn CITES thing won't let them sell internationally anything with rosewood.

I inquired about an R7 they had but they responded by telling me they didn't have the proper licenses yet for international shipment of rosewood.

What a shame.


There is a famous bagpipes sellers and manufacturer that has already managed to get everything in order to export their bagpipes and chanters overseas, they make a huge deal about how they are prepaired for the new CITES rules https://kilberrybagpipes.com/.

One thing that you can bet on though is that all sellers, especially the ones who don't require any form of CITEs paper work are going to start taking advantage of the situation and try to jack up their prices by as much as they think that they can get away with.
 

OiRogers

Member
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1,774
I was reading a bit about CITES yesterday and the impact on the used gear market. From what I could gather, every seller will have to obtain a CITES certificate from whatever agency issues such things in their country in order for that instrument to be sold outside the nation. There does appear to be an exception for personally used musical instruments while travelling up to 11Kg of weight of protected species.
It sounds like Ishibashi will have to obtain an export certificate for any instrument with CITES regulated woods they want to ship outside of Japan... new or used.
I wasn't able to find anything out about the time involved in obtaining the certificate, or the costs involved.

Hopefully, the agencies involved will be able to streamline the process and make it go somewhat fast / cheap.

I found an article on CITES and it's impact on Reverb and went down the google-rabbithole from there.
 

NewLeaf09

Silver Supporting Member
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2,609
Just wait. I have a half dozen or so pieces of elephant ivory - carvings I inherited or bought before there were any restrictions. From what I can gather it is now illegal to sell ivory, period.

On the Brazilian rosewood, does that mean the CITES certificates I got with my Grosh set-necks won't allow me to sell them overseas?
 
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I just want some kid in the year 2100 to be able to see a Rosewood tree or Ebony tree in its native state, instead of him looking at a muddy ditch or field.

There's fewer guitar players every year and more guitars per player every day. It is unrealistic to think we can buy every single instrument that we know of out in the world....time to just enjoy the ones you already have or can pick up readily. There's going to be so many "unclaimed" fantastic guitars becoming available in this country as the players around us pass. I'd rather have the few trees that are left, unmolested. As opposed to even more guitars than can ever be played.

Let's stay on track here. The real battleground is keeping the guitars we already have (and not let them become contraband). I'll stand with you if you concentrate on this goal, with me.
 

Stev0Griffin

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I just want some kid in the year 2100 to be able to see a Rosewood tree or Ebony tree in its native state, instead of him looking at a muddy ditch or field.

There's fewer guitar players every year and more guitars per player every day. It is unrealistic to think we can buy every single instrument that we know of out in the world....time to just enjoy the ones you already have or can pick up readily. There's going to be so many "unclaimed" fantastic guitars becoming available in this country as the players around us pass. I'd rather have the few trees that are left, unmolested. As opposed to even more guitars than can ever be played.

Let's stay on track here. The real battleground is keeping the guitars we already have (and not let them become contraband). I'll stand with you if you concentrate on this goal, with me.
I don't see how being denied a guitar that was built 10 years ago can possibly have any impact on a type of wood used to build in the future.

Make the manufacturer build to different standards if you must, but telling a vendor that they can't sell a used, 10 year old guitar is absolutely tyrannical.
 
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Is CITES enforceable when moving across borders?

I don't think it is from my recent experience of having recieved goods from America that where made out of animal skins that have been on the CITES list Appendix II for years, and these items where clearly declared well in advance of shipping as well as on customs declaration stickers and paperwork in document pouches attached to the box that they where shipped in.
 

Guitarworks

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12,513
I've already made the decision to acquire more non CITES species to work with for as long as I can before needing to deal with the added steps, charges and permits.
 
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1,841
Just wait. I have a half dozen or so pieces of elephant ivory - carvings I inherited or bought before there were any restrictions. From what I can gather it is now illegal to sell ivory, period.

On the Brazilian rosewood, does that mean the CITES certificates I got with my Grosh set-necks won't allow me to sell them overseas?

There is a way around this, though unless you want to be stuck with an old piano key, you are going to end up breaking the law the minute that you carve or shape the old piano key into something else as the harvest date then changes from the date the ivory was originally harvested to make the antique piano key, to the day you started to carve or alter it.
 

Mayo5

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3,411
I don't think it is from my recent experience of having recieved goods from America that where made out of animal skins that have been on the CITES list Appendix II for years, and these items where clearly declared well in advance of shipping as well as on customs declaration stickers and paperwork in document pouches attached to the box that they where shipped in.
Thanks.
 

twoheadedboy

Member
Messages
14,658
Seriously. A few used Gibson R7's on Ishibashi's website for $1800 US excluding shipping, and the damn CITES thing won't let them sell internationally anything with rosewood.

I inquired about an R7 they had but they responded by telling me they didn't have the proper licenses yet for international shipment of rosewood.

What a shame.

Yeah, stupid protection of endangered species.
 

hunter

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
8,904
I don't see how being denied a guitar that was built 10 years ago can possibly have any impact on a type of wood used to build in the future.

Make the manufacturer build to different standards if you must, but telling a vendor that they can't sell a used, 10 year old guitar is absolutely tyrannical.

I don't think you are being denied. Just asked to demonstrate in writing the guitar is 10 years old. And the threshold for proof can be kept pretty low if the manufacture date precedes the CITES listing date.

As for impact on future sales, for threatened species like Brazilian, sales of instruments containing the wood clearly impact the exploitation of the resource by creating and maintaining demand. As long as there is a big premium for Brazilian wood sets (especially acoustics), the temptation to poach and forge documentation will exist. When most folks stop caring about Brazilian in some future lifetime, it will be much easier to save the resource. The folks behind CITES recognize this.

hunter
 
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Yeah, stupid protection of endangered species.

It's not stupid to protect endangered species be it trees or animals, what is stupid, and it is stupid to the point where the CITES agreement now looks like nothing more than a 'stealth tax' or for a way for governments to charge extra money, or to keep 'jobsworths' in employment, is the way in which the CITES agreement is being implamented and handled. How does confiscating a stradivarius violin, a violin made in the 1600's to mid 1700's and holding it for ransom - something that the German's have actually done on more than one occasion, going to help do anything to protect 'new' populations of endangered tree or animals, or confiscating Indian rosewood that was harvested in the 1940's - before CITES was even thought up, going to protect new rosewood trees?

I fully support the ideas and principles behind the CITES agreement, it's just the way that is being enforced and implemented that I thick is not only beyond stupid but bordering on incompetence, unworkable, non enforcable and will ultimately prove to be a waste of everybody involved time, effort and money, and that's before you look at the amount of jobs that trying to enforce the CITES agreement is it is right now will cost.
 

hunter

Silver Supporting Member
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8,904
It's not stupid to protect endangered species be it trees or animals, what is stupid, and it is stupid to the point where the CITES agreement now looks like nothing more than a 'stealth tax' or for a way for governments to charge extra money, or to keep 'jobsworths' in employment, is the way in which the CITES agreement is being implamented and handled. How does confiscating a stradivarius violin, a violin made in the 1600's to mid 1700's and holding it for ransom - something that the German's have actually done on more than one occasion, going to help do anything to protect 'new' populations of endangered tree or animals, or confiscating Indian rosewood that was harvested in the 1940's - before CITES was even thought up, going to protect new rosewood trees?

I fully support the ideas and principles behind the CITES agreement, it's just the way that is being enforced and implemented that I thick is not only beyond stupid but bordering on incompetence, unworkable, non enforcable and will ultimately prove to be a waste of everybody involved time, effort and money, and that's before you look at the amount of jobs that trying to enforce the CITES agreement is it is right now will cost.

It is hard to protect without regulation and enforcement. Awareness ain't gonna do it. And under the rules certain documentation is required. If the person transporting the violin didn't have the documentation supporting the dates were pre CITES listing, then they messed up. CITES says that violin from the 1600s is OK. Just have documentation to prove it's build date and appropriate CITES permits. One problem is uneven enforcement can generate false complacency or can be abused. But an international musician would be wise to get very familiar with the regulations implementing CITES in their itinerary countries.

Like many things, preservation of the species will require adjustments and new ways of thinking. Not bad for most. Big deal for some.

hunter
 
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1,841
It is hard to protect without regulation and enforcement. Awareness ain't gonna do it. And under the rules certain documentation is required. If the person transporting the violin didn't have the documentation supporting the dates were pre CITES listing, then they messed up. CITES says that violin from the 1600s is OK. Just have documentation to prove it's build date and appropriate CITES permits. One problem is uneven enforcement can generate false complacency or can be abused. But an international musician would be wise to get very familiar with the regulations implementing CITES in their itinerary countries.

Like many things, preservation of the species will require adjustments and new ways of thinking. Not bad for most. Big deal for some.

hunter

And try and get that paperwork, the government agencies that are supposed to be regulating and enforcing these new rules themselves can't seem to be able to tell you how to get paperwork to prove that something that is now on the CITES list was harvested long before the CITES agreement came into existance or was even thought of, or even something as simple as how long it will take to get the paperwork for something that the harvest date is known and can be proved. Gibson got hit, and they had perfectly legel rosewood, all legally sourced and with all the correct paperwork in place, it was so comical, it was keystone cops level of stupidity that Gibson took that **** out of all the government agencies involved in the regulating and enforcing of the CITES agreements by releasing a limited edition series of guitar called the 'Government Series'.

Like I said I support it in principal, and the ideals behind it, but not the way it is being implamented or enforced, it's just going to make the black market for these protected species a lot bigger and the people willing to sell them on the black market a lot richer.
 
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JPIndustrie

Member
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1,371
More grey area.

I see and ironically agree with both sides.

In the end I think everyone lost. Nothing will stop the harvesting to the very end of those woods, they've just made the hunt a lot more exclusive.

Proof of manufacturer ? Showing things ?

I just turned 31 and I'm beginning to think life is just one big licensure then you die. Because lord knows I may not be 'fortunate' enough to compete for those woods in the future...
 




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