Suhr sl67. Germino lead 55 or dirty shirley

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by Chance Terrill, Aug 2, 2019.

  1. Gemini2

    Gemini2 Member

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    The two Chinese greenbacks will be fine and they sound good too. A friend ran a pair with a 50 watt Recto head. Many, many gigs and he plays LOUD! No problems. Another friend ran a Z Maserati (30 watts class A) and also a Mojave plexi 45 and he too had no issues with the GB's. Although the last two two amps are lower wattage they are cleaner than the DS and that's where you get in trouble blowing speakers, loud and clean.
     
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  2. Chance Terrill

    Chance Terrill Member

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    What is so amazing about musicians is we all have our own ideals and standards....... If it wasn't this way every one would have the same rig....... I have heard the double wattage rule before. But also have heard it's over kill ....... From the inquiring I've done...

    I have contacted. Avatar. Scumback. Friedman and celestion. And they all have said 2 Chinese g12m greenbacks will handle the shirley so I think I will be safe
     
  3. Scumback Speakers

    Scumback Speakers Gold Supporting Member

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    Since there seems to be a lot of views on this subject, allow me to say this one more time (and I'm sure it won't be the last!), ok?

    You can certainly run two 25w speakers with a 50w 1987 Marshall amp for "awhile". If you run that amp at 8-9 on the volume knob, where I run it, those two 25w speakers will have a short life. 50w Marshall 1987 model amps put out 50-55w clean (that's a clean signal/3% distortion, around 3-4 on the volume knob). They put out well over 90w at 16 ohms with 10% distortion when run at 8-9. If you kick in any pedal that boosts the input signal over (overdrive, fuzz, delay, wah, flanger, etc) what they tested it with (noted below under input sensitivity) at the factory, the volume is going to increase. Please note that these amps have a much higher 10% distortion power rating than the clean tone at 3% distortion (their factory measurements). I refer, once again, to the JCM 800 manual below from Marshall, read it carefully for the 100w 1959 and 50w 1987 models at the Power Output sections. Note the term "typical". You change the power tubes bias, that rating changes. You can modify an amp to put out more power than what's rated below, these are STOCK specs.

    [​IMG]

    The Dirty Shirley is a 40w/dual 5881 power tube amp. There is no test rating in the manual on what power it puts out at 8-9 on the volume knob. Maybe Friedman will do that some day. My guess with the circuit based on a modified JTM 45 it puts out 40w clean, maybe as much as 60-65w fully cranked. It may be fine with two G12M Reissue Greenbacks. It may not hit volume that melts the G12M voice coil. I'm not going to tell a player to take a chance, and gamble with his money, though.

    I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the G12M Reissue uses a higher power rated voice coil than 25w, and just rates it at 25w for posterity and keeping the labels the same. They do make a 65w Creamback G12M, that 35w G12XC limited edition model, and others as well. You can't tell what voice coil is in a speaker by looking at the front of it in most cases, you rely on the label to tell you.

    While I make 20/25/30/65 and 100w speakers (just to correct Braciola, maybe you weren't aware), I make them to a specification, based on tone, magnet size and power handling. I don't have a pile of labels already printed that need to be used, so I don't recommend a 65w speaker unless it's the right recommendation. Since I don't charge more for a 65w speaker than a 25/30w, there's no reason to tell a player to get one over the other unless there's a good reason to. That's what I do, which is recommend the right speaker/power rating for the rig of the player.

    And just so we're clear about the power rating/handling/etc thing...I've always recommended double the power handling based on the JCM 800 manual power output posted above, practical common sense, and my client's experiences. I've been doing this almost two decades now, plus the research before I started which brings it to 22 years plus. When you have hundreds of clients email/call/contact you to say they ran their 50w with two G12M 25w or G12H30 30w Greenbacks and blew them, you make a note of how they did it, just so you can keep others from doing it. And usually one of those experiences is followed by the player sending in his two 25/30w speakers to be reconed/rebuilt as 65w models. That should tell you something, based on their experience they got to pay for.

    Hence the double the power handling statement I've used for years. So, with all due respect to the various perspectives from the members here, I'm going to recommend what's safe when the amp is cranked, not what it is "rated for" since those ratings are usually conservative, and in many cases not realistic live after a pedal board with 6-20 db of gain is injected into the front input jack or through the fx loop.

    It's ok if you don't believe me. I've had a lot of players come back to me later, asking for a 65w recone for their speaker "they've never had a problem with...up until now..." I do recones as well, and if you want to pay me to recone your speaker, that's fine, too.

    You know, it's similar to having a high powered car engine and lighting up your rear tires by stomping on the gas pedal. It's great when you burn up the tires, blue smoke billows out and that wicked feeling of ultimate acceleration kicks in.

    But you also get to replace those tires more often!
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
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  4. Braciola

    Braciola Silver Supporting Member

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    That's a fine marketing argument Jim, but you know as well as I that the double power handling thing is BS.
    And folks with a Dirty Shirley that might be put off trying Greenbacks, please don't be swayed by his statement and think that your only choice is to buy 65 watt Greenbacks.
    Celestion 25 watt current production Greenbacks will work just just fine.
    And metal voice coils won't melt over time, lol!
    Maybe Rick from Celestion could chime in.....
     
  5. Scumback Speakers

    Scumback Speakers Gold Supporting Member

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    Marketing argument? Sheesh. Do the math on those amp power ratings. BS isn't something I choose to spread. I've had players get four G12H30's, crank their 100w heads and call me the next day about 65w recones because they believed as you do. Are you willing to pay for their replacement speakers or recones?

    You didn't read that JCM 800 manual I posted above at all, did you, Dom?

    As for metal voice coils, yeah, they might not melt, but none of my clients like their tone. Excuse me, but whatever your experiences have been are irrelevant now, 40 years later. A lot has changed in voice coil power ratings, types, etc over what was available when you were in the game. Ding, oh wow, look at that...a PayPal Notification of Payment Received email just came in for a 65w recone (true story).

    I wonder why they didn't go with a 25w? It's the same cost. Look, you can say whatever you want, it's a free country. But try not to ignore the math, ok?
     
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  6. Braciola

    Braciola Silver Supporting Member

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    From Celestion -

    Different speaker manufacturers use differing methods to determine power handling. At Celestion, every speaker is rigorously power/longevity tested using an in-house developed noise source. From this test, we find out how much power the speaker is capable of using and how much will destroy the speaker outright. By skilful analysis of the test data, we calculate a suitable power-handling figure.

    The value chosen is low enough so there's little or no risk of damage, but highenough for the speaker to fulfil the application it was designed for. It is NOT an absolute limit above which you must never go, more like a "speed limit" You can exceed the limit if you want, but it's not recommended and if you do, theremay be trouble ahead...Generally, you can safely run a 60-watt Celestion speaker at 60 watts and it'll keep going all day long.* Connect it up to 100 watts and it might work for anhour or more before it incinerates. "Over-power" any speaker and it'll workfine for a while; just don't bank on it lasting.
     
  7. Scumback Speakers

    Scumback Speakers Gold Supporting Member

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    Celestion also thinks a speaker breaks in within the first several minutes of use. Do you believe that statement as well?
     
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  8. Braciola

    Braciola Silver Supporting Member

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    From Celestion-

    A brand new, out of the box guitar speaker will subtly shift in tone over the first few hours of playing as the fibres within the cone start to relax and become more pliable. Don't worry too much about this change, its natural and many people believe that this improves the sound, making it more 'rounded' and pleasing to listen to.

    Some players prefer to speed up this process, this is what is referred to as breaking-in; they deliberately soften up the cone in order to bring the speaker to it's optimum state in terms of tonality.

    You'll hear about lots of different breaking in techniques. Some play random noise through their speakers, others prefer to play music through them for many hours.

    There's plenty of debate over the technique to use for break in and how long to do it for, but they all achieve the same end, softening up the cone and rounding out the sound. Below is our preferred method.

    Important Note! Before breaking it in it's advisable to warm up the speaker gently for a few minutes with low-level playing or background hum.

    Break in a speaker with a fat, clean tone: turn up the power amp volume to full, and control the level with the preamp gain. Use a level that will be quite loud, but not painful in a normal size room.

    Have the bass and mid up full, and the treble at least half. On your guitar, use the middle pick up position (if your guitar has more than one pick up) and play for at least an hour, using lots of open chords, and chunky percussive playing.

    This will get the cone moving, and should excite all the cone modes and get everything to settle in nicely. The speaker's tone will continue to mature with additional hours of playing, but this will get it most of the way there
     
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  9. big mike

    big mike Plexi Loving Admin Staff Member

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    Agree to disagree and move on please. Dragging thread off topic.
     
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  10. Braciola

    Braciola Silver Supporting Member

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    Thanks,
    Yeah, I recommended that to him but he seems to think It won't be loud enough with his drummer.
    I've played the SV20H, and I don't think volume would be an issue, and no question it will do AC/DC tones far better than a Dirty Shirley.

    .
     
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  11. Chance Terrill

    Chance Terrill Member

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    Not that I don't think it will be loud enough..... I don't think it will have any head room. It is essential that I can clean the amp up a little. The other guitaredt alsi has a 60 watt tube amp so I just am not sure 20 watts will be flexible enough
     
  12. Chance Terrill

    Chance Terrill Member

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    I want to go with Jim from scumbacks recommendation of j75 65 watt speakers. Only trouble is. The cab goes from 550 to 900. N after spending 2700 Im freaking broke as a joke string out on coke I will just order it with the cheap greenbacks to bide time. Then buy the better scumbacks in a month when I recoup. No won't rest till I have those scumbacks though
     
  13. Chance Terrill

    Chance Terrill Member

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    is this the Pete. Like Pete thorn Pete? Holy ****. I feel honered to have mr scumback and Pete thorn post on my thread
     
  14. Gasp100

    Gasp100 Supporting Member

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    I thought it was actually ridiculously loud for a 20 watter (and I've had the famed Budda watts, Dr Z Maz 18, etc...).
    It actually sounds quite full in 5 watt mode as well. Really cool amp, but yeah if your jumping channels and cranking it at VERY LOUD volumes then you might clean up quite as much as you want.
    Probably have to jump up to the Suhr or Germino or Metroplex. Ben Fargen makes some killer Marshall style amps as well.
    Suhr Badger 30 is really cool too!
     
  15. Chance Terrill

    Chance Terrill Member

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    If I go plexi I'll go either suhr germino or rockitt but I probably will give the 40 watt shirley a go it's the only amp of the bunch I've actually played. And when I played it I loved it n it came really close to the sound in my head maybe a little more polished but for my needs I'm gonna swing on it and see what happens. If I hate it. I'll trade it for a germino or suhr they are both about 300 less so I should be able to pull that off
     
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  16. Chance Terrill

    Chance Terrill Member

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    I'm learning fast that people get pissed quick on here hopefully I'm not fueling the fire. My mind has been swirling with amps tubes speakers etc.. The last few weeks. I'm choosing amps in my sleep now..... So I just want to say I seriously appreciate everyones advice suggestions and the general help that you have all provided..... Which was a **** ton imo. And with out your help it's very likely I would have no idea what to get. N end up getting the wrong thing and be bummin. ..... Which I still might. Bug given all of your advice. I feel Im able to make a more educated decision. A huge thanks to every single person who has offered insight. It means alot that u would take time out of your days to help a fellow musician riddled with ocd and indecision
     
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  17. Chance Terrill

    Chance Terrill Member

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    Wooster Ohio.
     
  18. DV52

    DV52 Member

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    I hear you loud and clear !!! My gal says I'm the king of indecision. You played the one that you immediately liked and now you are overanalyzing and trying to justify by getting support from a bunch of enablers. If you keep listening to this crowd you'll wind up ....
    "hey man just get a DRRI, and some pedals, DUDE and ... " or..
    You get the picture . You are going to love the Dirty Shirley no matter how much JimmyJeffy tries to talk you out of it:cool: !!!
     
  19. big mike

    big mike Plexi Loving Admin Staff Member

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    I think disagreements get a little more vicious sometimes because we lack the in person body language etc.

    All good man! Hope you dig.
     
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  20. Chance Terrill

    Chance Terrill Member

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    I just feel like everybody is irritated with me at this point and that wasn't my intention.....
     

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