Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by Chance Terrill, Aug 2, 2019.
You are OK sir . Post some more of you rocking out when your new amp gets there!!!
Tone wise, the metroplex is way more similar to a plexi than a 2203..a lot more sag and looser saturation than an 2203...
Where its not quite 100% plexi is it doesnt quite do the plexi-on-10, wild feel of a 4-holer that is all the way up...but its still way closer in this regard than a 2203.
Perhaps your friend meant there is way more gain available than a plexi, which is very true...but it can be dialed in like 95% of the way to an authentic plexi style amp.
The dirty shirley?
Nope. Don't read to much into it. As I say, a lot gets lost with the written communication forms.
Disagree. But a 2203 and a 1959 aren't really that far apart anyway.
I’ve used a couple greenbacks with my 50 watt for years and they’ve never blown but I hardly ever run it dimed. The times I did they started to flub some. The 50watt eminence gb128s sounded tighter at high volume but they didn’t have the midrange of the greens. They did sound good though. It’s best to have a selection I think
Eminence speakers are a great choice if you are low on cash. So are the warehouse speakers.
really, I found the MP to be very plexi like when keeping the gain around 4 or so...what did you think that wasn't vintage like?
sorry, I meant the Metroplex
I thought you meant the Shirley as well.
yes the metroplex is awesome and like most of the great plexi tones (and then some) in one box.
edited to be more clear
Just ordered the 40watt dirty shirley today hopefully I can scrape together the coin for a scumback loaded 2x12 if not Ill be stuck with Chinese greenbacks. But I think they sound great. I just like scumbacks the best If I have to go celestion I could choose greenbacks or creamback 65m with the shirley I think the green will push mids harder n get closer to acdc tone. MAybe trim some bass that the cream would add am I correct in thinking this?
FYI, the reissue G12M Greenbacks are now made in England. If you are buying new ones that’s probably where they will be made.
I have Chinese and England made and they sound the same to me.
I have tried a bunch of different speakers chasing something but came back to those basic greenbacks. They just work. Especially in a live band setting.
I use them with Germino and Ceriatone master volume amps.
Scumbacks and others do sound different. Not necessarily better or worse, just different.
I prefer them in a closed backed cab. If I had an open back cab, I would mix an H and an M.
For a 2x12 with a conversion board on the back to MAke it open or closed, should I go greenbacks m. Or greenbacks h. I know the dirty shirley has alot if bass. N I want to embelish the midrange to make it cut more. So I am thinking the g12m greenback will get me there..... Thoughts?
Better in the ear of the beholder. the G12M's are good. The scumbacks sound exactly like 60's and 70's Celestions. Not a loose clone based on 'close enough'. Not to bag on them, I like G12M's for the right thing. but in actual practice and comparison, the scumback nailed the original without sounding worn out. Dislaimer: Yes Jim's become a dear friend over the years, but I'm a customer. (I have played demo monkey for him at a couple amp shows). I use them with Marshall 50 watt circuit clones I built. Not too far off germino or original marshall specs. 68-72 lead or bass depending on which amp. Also use with greer cam18 (think matchless spitfire with 6V6's and you're in the neighborhood). Original Jubilee, and deluxe reverb.
Agree whole heartedly. M/H mix is fantastic, as is the M/J for openback. Currently running all M's but I may switch back to an H in the open 2x12.
I also like the old Reinhardt spec WGS...more a 'split the difference' speaker than a clone of anything.
Celestion does some good stuff, I like the Fullback..best available 15" guitar speaker around IMO.
I've also used and liked some EV and WGS stuff but I always end up back at scumback for my tones.
Depends IMHO. H's are great, but they have extended bass and treble as opposed to a mid emphasis, compared to the Ms. An H gives you a bigger sound generally. So a lot of people mix them with Ms to make a 212 somehow approximate a 412, in auditory size.
Having said that, I would not like an H with my strat and DS40, because I am trying to enhance mids in a slightly scooped amp, NOT enhance bass in an already bassy amp, or enhance treble when my strat gets trebly enough thank you very much. So the H would be the exact opposite of what I personally would want with that amp. The ACDC sound is also pure M magnet.
One of the early youtube demos of the old Shirley features a young strat player at a NAMM show with Dave -- this was quite a few years ago now -- and he was using an M/H Scumback mix. IMO, that vid highlights the shortcomings of that approach you can hear for yourself -- the cut is not good, the tone is hollowed out with insufficient mids for a strat. Lacks substance -- he is playing Zep and you can't even hear the notes he is playing on the complex chords -- a no-no with Zep or ACDC. Maybe it's hard to hear online, but I feel strongly I can hear it. Pretty sure you can still find that demo. If I play the same Zep song as him (Dancing Days) with my mid friendly setup and strat, it sounds much better, and all the notes and colors are articulated properly to ring together so you can appreciate the composition.
However, if you have some mid heavy humbuckers, and are not planning to play strat with your DS40, then an M/H Scumback mix might sound nice, if you are going for size of sound and are not worried about being heard articulating all your strings in a mix.
Jim likes J speakers with that amp, but he tried it with the old model version, and probably didn't try it with a strat. So I "disagree" with Jim on that one, just musically, for my own setup and needs. J's would give you a bigger sound than Ms, for sure; but they would have stronger highs and lows, with weaker mids. Actually, in fairness to Jim, he helped me choose the speakers I actually do use with it, based on my goals; and I think he is speaking generically or generally.
I've thought this through a thousand times playing that amp. But I am not seeking a scooped sound in any way shape or form. I am seeking to push a jtm circuit in the direction of a superlead by enhancing the mids -- so I can use the DS40 more like a generic Marshall for flexibility -- and be able to pull off things like ACDC, ZZ, and Zep, all of which require strong mids to articulate those chords and double stops. The DS40 already has quite a bit of size to its tone, and just turning volume up enhances the range of bass and treble in the room. So to me an H magnet is not needed. An H would also be undesireable in terms of over efficiency. If you want to crank it to get NMV sounds, the H will make that much harder. Everything I told you about nailing ACDC with that amp depends on M magnet speakers. All bets are off with H's. With a strat, I lilke the M55/M75 mix, and with humbuckers, I would go straight M75s or greenbacks (with your stated music that is, various alnicos would be great too if you weren't trying to nail a greenback flavor of tone so much). I think the amp would be killer with an old vintage 412 loaded with stock greenies. It also depends on whether you are playing clean or with significant gain. If you are playing clean, a bit scooped doesn't matter, and can even be a good thing. Or, if you want a scooped sound as with some kinds of metal...
I won't rehash the wattage handling argument, lol.
As far as open versus closed back, it is preference and depends on your situation. But I like open to get more swirling harmonics in the room, which is a trait that amp can exploit with its 5881s and cleanish sparkle. And I like to avoid the beaminess of a closed back due to the smallish rooms I play most. I am pointing my cab toward a wall anyway, to avoid pissing people off; so the music coming out the back of the cab is for sure a positive in my situation. If I was on a big stage, then yeah, not only would I use a closed back, I would use a closed back stack! So I just think it depends.
@big mike agree with your points above. I know the Reissue Celestions aren’t spot on with the 60s/70s greenbacks. But for whatever reason, I have grown to like the reissues for what i do.
That's the important part!
I used the regular greenbacks a long time in my rig.
I had an interesting practice when I first got into scumbacks.
I ran one practice with them, sounded fabulous.
Next practice I went back to the G12M's just to see, and didn't say anything to the rest of the band.
All the guys in the band thought my amp was broke.
I'd argue most of this, but you're a strat guy.
We'll never see eye to eye.
You could probably make an argument based on your situation, instruments and preferences I might agree with, given those. Eveything I am suggesting is merely conditional, (and relative) and I tried to state those conditions so people like you can freely disagree. I'm not the kinda guy who simply states that what I like is the best, better than what you like. What I can say is that everything I wrote is based on lots of experience and listening, with that particular, post-2016 mods DS40. Change any one element, and the whole evaluation changes.
I know you have helped make the M/H combo popular here, and I tried to say what I think is great about that approach to be appreciative. I think a two J combo has some similar advantages, but may not have been around in those days. But if you listen to the Dancing Days tune being played on that old Friedman demo with the strat, perhaps you would hear what I heard too?
As I recall, you like the DS, but are not a giant fan either, preferring superleads, which I think is a totally legit stance I would agree with if my musical needs were slightly different. I love the amp and have lived with it for years by now, but am trying to push it in a direction other than just the traditional Bluesbreaker/jtm direction, and definitely not in a "stereotypical Friedman" direction. I achieved exactly what I set out to do with it, and it took work. You might find my rig unplayable for what you are seeking to do...
Like I said...strat guy vs bucker/p90 guy.
I just don't see the dirty Shirley's as scooped at all.
Im actually not even using an M/H mix right now, all M75's or M75 PVC's in my 4x12.
I like the j a lot too, I have one.