Tequila

felken

Member
Messages
850
I am sitting in with some players who are doing this old tune with an extended vamp over G7-F back and forth.

Anyone have some nice approaches beyond playing D dorian (and fmaj7 and g7 arps) emphasizing the guide tones in G7 and F?
 

felken

Member
Messages
850
No one wants to take a stab at this??

Simple song, how do you get more out of these simple changes?
 

jzucker

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
20,962
A couple hints. The G7 to F is as you've noted part of the C major tonality so you can use a D Dorian or any diatonic synonym of C major. However, what is not so apparent is that the F chord though it may not always contain the 7th is an implied dom7 chord and as such is part of the diminished series of V7 substitutions. Here's why:

The V chord of the G7 would be an D7. The F7 is a minor 3rd up and related to a D7b9 via the Eb diminished chord which would be Eb Gb A C (D7b9). Lowering the Gb to an F gives you Eb F A C (F7).

Therefore, the chord progression can be viewed as a G7 to D7b9. Try using the ii chord in front of the F7 (Cm7) which gives you the altered notes of a D7 chord. This way, you create the feeling of movement in your playing.

What I like to do is mostly use D Dorian types of lines but every once in a while the Cm7 F7 or D7Alt going back to the G gives the progression some movement.

Wes used this technique extensively over a tune he wrote called twisted blues which used a G7 to F7 progression. Most of the time, he ignored the F7 and played it like it was G7 but every once in a while, he sprinkled in D7Alt or Cm7 F7 lines in there and it worked beautifully!
 
B

Ben

I have read somewhere ( I think on more than one ocassion) that you can play scales that are the 5th of a 5th. I haven't tried it but I think that means that over the G7 you could play a D-Mixolydian.
 

shigihara

Member
Messages
1,217
Originally posted by felken
I am sitting in with some players who are doing this old tune with an extended vamp over G7-F back and forth.

Anyone have some nice approaches beyond playing D dorian (and fmaj7 and g7 arps) emphasizing the guide tones in G7 and F?
mixolydian with a b6 works very well over both chords

1 9 3 4/11 5 b6 b7 1

g a b c d eb f g
 

jzucker

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
20,962
Originally posted by Ben
I have read somewhere ( I think on more than one ocassion) that you can play scales that are the 5th of a 5th. I haven't tried it but I think that means that over the G7 you could play a D-Mixolydian.
No, that's incorrect. The F# in the D Mixolydian is not good over the G7. However, you can use a Dorian off the 5th of each chord.
 

shigihara

Member
Messages
1,217
Originally posted by jzucker
No, that's incorrect. The F# in the D Mixolydian is not good over the G7. However, you can use a Dorian off the 5th of each chord.
yes... in this case (G7/F) the C melodic minor over the F chord adds a little
more spice to it...
 

adamquek

Member
Messages
837
Originally posted by Ben
I have read somewhere ( I think on more than one ocassion) that you can play scales that are the 5th of a 5th. I haven't tried it but I think that means that over the G7 you could play a D-Mixolydian.
Perhaps you mean the b5 of a 5? So over G7 you could actually play a Db mixolydian. I think this is derived from your tritone substitution? If you tritone sub of G7 is Db7, and that's related Db Mixolydian, you could play a Db Mixolydian over G7. Taking this one step further, I find if you take all the notes from G mixolydian and Db mixolydian you have all 12 tones hmm.. I've tried whole tone scales over 7th chords with success, maybe try a G wholetone idea, could be interesting and exotic :)
 
B

Ben

That's it, I rember reading about the tritone substitution. It must have been the b5 of a 5. I'll see if I can find where I read it.
 

jzucker

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
20,962
Originally posted by adamquek
Perhaps you mean the b5 of a 5? So over G7 you could actually play a Db mixolydian. I think this is derived from your tritone substitution? If you tritone sub of G7 is Db7, and that's related Db Mixolydian, you could play a Db Mixolydian over G7. Taking this one step further, I find if you take all the notes from G mixolydian and Db mixolydian you have all 12 tones hmm.. I've tried whole tone scales over 7th chords with success, maybe try a G wholetone idea, could be interesting and exotic :)
You typically don't use a tritone substitution unless the chord is moving up a 4th. You can stretch the definition of this chord progression to make it

: G7Alt : Cm7 F7 :

This allows you to use the tritone sub (Db7) over the G7 but you still wouldn't use Mixolydian. The native scale of the tritone sub is Lydian b7, not mixolydian. Lydian b7 is also Mixolydian #4.

However, if you're at the point where you're struggling to learn to play over G7 to F7, I wouldn't recommend getting more complicated. Try transcribing some Wes or Gatton lines over this tune and you'll begin to see the concept a littler more clearly.
 

felken

Member
Messages
850
Doesn't scofield play a lot of outside lines over fairly static harmonies in the band he had/has about 3 years ago. (I like scofields playing very much.)

That band sounded great and it seems this type of groove thing is similar in a way, fairly static harmony. A lot of clips I hear here do the same, great lines, nice stuff.

I am looking for ways to spice up my lines on this so I appreciate the help.

More complicated ideas are very welcome also. The c-7 to F works nicely and it seems Jack has hinted at some other ideas in his last post??
 

jzucker

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
20,962
Originally posted by felken
Doesn't scofield play a lot of outside lines over fairly static harmonies in the band he had/has about 3 years ago. (I like scofields playing very much.)

That band sounded great and it seems this type of groove thing is similar in a way, fairly static harmony. A lot of clips I hear here do the same, great lines, nice stuff.

I am looking for ways to spice up my lines on this so I appreciate the help.

More complicated ideas are very welcome also. The c-7 to F works nicely and it seems Jack has hinted at some other ideas in his last post??
Yes, Sco and other jazzers do that kind of stuff all the time. However, playing the tritone sub is not really "out". It's implying a chord change. I don't really consider that to be "out" playing. For out playing, try taking some patterns and moving them around the fingerboard, working in and out of the harmony. Pat Metheny does this really well. Check out his solo break on "Third Wind"...
 

felken

Member
Messages
850
I also need to make time to delve into my copy of Sheets of Sound, I suspect that it will open up many new ideas. I also have a copy of a book called MAMI that has been useful for learning the fingerboard better for a certain chord etc... but time gets so scarce as I get older.

Off topic slightly;

Jack is there any plans on reprinting Sheets of Sound with larger print? I thought I saw a post about that a while back.
 

shigihara

Member
Messages
1,217
Jack,

you probably don't remember, but we had a brief exchange at HC
a couple of years ago re: Curt Warren...
Are you still in touch with him and do you have his current contact info ?

All the best,

Paul Shigihara
 

jzucker

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
20,962
Originally posted by shigihara
Jack,

you probably don't remember, but we had a brief exchange at HC
a couple of years ago re: Curt Warren...
Are you still in touch with him and do you have his current contact info ?

All the best,

Paul Shigihara
Unfortunately, I don't. I emailed him a few months back and it bounced.
 




Trending Topics

Top