The 2 Delays thing! Vintage style...

Discussion in 'The Rack Space' started by italo de angelis, Nov 30, 2017.


  1. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    You own two digital delays or maybe a dual digital delay.
    And a STEREO mixer with 2 Aux Sends.

    Nothing too fancy, right?

    Let's do some work and get some nice sounds using the mixer KNOBS!

    BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING OF THIS... BE WARNED THAT FEEDBACK & CROSSFEEDBACK PATHS CAN PRODUCE VERY STRONG AND DESTRUCTIVE AUDIO CAPABLE OF DAMAGING YOUR EARS!
    DO NOT USE THOSE AUX SENDS POTS ABOVE 9 or 10 o'clock POSITIONS.
    I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE IF YOU MESS UP... PARTICULARLY WITH HEADPHONES.
    BE VERY CAREFUL, DUDES!!! ALWAYS TRIPLE CHECK YOUR SETTINGS AND KEEP LEVELS SOFT!!!


    Connections:
    Aux Send 1 > DDL #1 > Channel 1 in mono, panned full LEFT
    Aux Send 2 > DDL #2 > Channel 2 in mono, panned full RIGHT

    So... no stereo outputs from any of the 2 delays. We make stereo happen ON the mixer.
    NULL any feedback on both delays. We are using feedback or cross-feedback in analog domain, using the mixer. Way cool stuff there.
    NULL any filters on both delays. They suck anyway. We are using analog filters on the mixer. They just sound much better.


    This may also be done with a DSP based multi-fx device, as long as you can do what I described above and use two delay voices, each one fed by a single input of the unit.
    You are going to connect both inputs and outputs.

    LEARN THIS NOW and USE THIS INFO FOR REFERENCE INFO THRU THIS POST:
    FEEDBACK AND CROSS-FEEDBACK PATHS
    NOTICE how the mixer channels Aux Sends 1 & 2 work... and BE CAREFUL!
    USE PRE-FADER AUX SENDS FOR THIS ! ! !
    CH1 Send1 is the regular feedback, sending DLY#1 audio back to itself
    CH2 Send2 is the regular feedback, sending DLY#2 audio back to itself
    CH1 Send2 is DLY#1>DLY#2 cross-feedback, sending DLY#1 audio to DLY#2
    CH2 Send1 is DLY#2>DLY#1 cross-feedback, sending DLY#2 audio to DLY#1

    Connect your DRY source/guitar to mixer ch 3 and use both AUX SENDS 1 and 2 to send audio to the 2 delays- If you have a pre/post fader switch on this channel, you can use it for tweaking fun/details.

    The sought after (and boring) Circular Delay thing....
    you just can't live without this, can you?
    Well....

    set DLY#1 at 292 ms (L) and DLY#2 at 584 ms (R)
    gently set ch2 SEND2 and ch3 SEND1 to 9 0'clock. Raise them at your own taste if you don't get run_away feedback.
    Listen... hear that extra delay tap happening at the center? Right.... that's the 876 ms delay generated by math and cross-feedback.
    Now some TONAL fun!
    Cut your highs back... 12 or 10KHz down on both channels.
    Got midband? Cool... try beefing 3KHz up a bit
    Lows... use your ears.
    Be aware that boosting EQ frequencies does also increas feedback to possible runaway settings, so be careful there.
    Now what? Try some modulation form a single delay... it will leak into the other too.
    Then maybe try both modulations... set very differently... to have different detunings going on in each delay.
    Try adding a touch of self-modulation on each channel for a hint of flanging... but you will loose the 3 panning locations. Experiment and be careful with those Aux Sends knobs as they are now you analog FEEDBACKS and CROSS-FEEDBACKS controls.
    Are you getting the beauty of this all and understanding the possibilities...consequences?
    No?
    Go to hell and play a Boss delay pedal in mono for eternity.

    Try other delay times with the above scheme:
    DLY#1 : 195 ms // DLY#2 : 584 ms
    DLY#1 : 438 ms // DLY#2 : 584 ms TRY THIS also USING SELF-FDBK ONLY!!!
    DLY#1 : 876 ms // DLY#2 : 584 ms
    DLY#1 : 600 ms // DLY#2 : 188 ms
    DLY#1 : 600 ms // DLY#2 : 376 ms
    DLY#1 : 600 ms // DLY#2 : 284 ms
    you can get endless cool rhythms there... or uncorrelate them, like in
    DLY#1 : 600 ms // DLY#2 : 533 or 555 ms

    ********************
    Now bust your Haas!

    Try this only if you can mute your dry channel (#3) and have its SENDs 1 and 2 working as PRE-FADER:
    DLY#1 : 2 ms // DLY#2 : 2 ms with slow mod rate at 0.2 Hz and 80/90% depth. CH#2 ONLY!
    NO FEEDBACKS OR CROSS-FEEDBACKS HERE!
    Listen... it moves, right? No it doesn't! It's your messed up brain that can't make the math right... still.... after a million years of evolution.
    Now... pull some cross feedbacks up... like 10 o'clock for CH#1 Send2 and CH#2 Send 1 only.
    Some nice psycho-acoustics panning analog flanger there, uh? Nice texture.
    Try these tweaks:
    DLY#1 : 3 ms // DLY#2 : 7 ms with 0.3 Hz mod_rate and some beefy depth
    DLY#1 : 1 ms // DLY#2 : 3 ms with 0.3 or 1 Hz mod_rate and some beefy depth
    DLY#1 : 12 ms // DLY#2 : 12 ms with 0.2 Hz mod_rate and some beefy depth


    More later....
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
  2. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    AGAIN... BE VERY CAREFUL TO YOUR FDBK/X_FDBK SETTINGS::: FOR YOUR EARS!!!

    I like this one a lot:
    refer to the previous post for all routing details.
    DLY#1 : 600 ms // DLY#2 : 600 ms
    Only apply modulation to DLY#1 (left delay), 0.6 Hz, about 60% mod depth.
    Use ONLY cross-feedback on both mixe channels 1 and 2. Add DRY signal panned center.
    The higher the mod depth, the more you are going to perceive some delay panning... "perceive" mind you.
    Try the same thing adding 10 ms. to DLY#1 only.

    ***************************

    Some triplets feel...
    DLY#1 : 300 ms // DLY#2 : 600 ms
    Only apply modulation to DLY#1 (left delay), 0.6 Hz, about 60% mod depth.
    Use ONLY cross-feedback on both mixer channels 1 and 2. Add DRY signal panned center.

    ***************************

    Thru 0 Flanging
    DLY#1 : 4 ms // DLY#2 : 4 ms
    Apply modulation to both delays and make LEFT rate 0.8 Hz while RIGHT runs at half of that, 0.4 Hz. BEEFY DEPTH on both.
    Use ONLY cross-feedback on both mixer channels 1 and 2. Add DRY signal panned center.

    **************************
    Now try 12 ms on both delays...
    Then 25 ms on both.....

    Leave all the rest as above, for flanging.
     
  3. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    AND THIS...

    DLY#1: 350 ms - NO MOD
    DLY#2: 4 ms - MOD ON rate 0.4Hz, depth FULL (use your ears)
    set the mixer channels 1 and 2 panpots at 9 and 3 o'clock for L/R panning bleeding
    Use ONLY cross-feedback on both mixer channels 1 and 2. Add DRY signal panned center.

    Watch out! Your ears!!!

    :boxer:boxer:boxer
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
  4. Leon Todd

    Leon Todd Member

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    Thanks Italo, these should be fun to try.
     
  5. jaykay73

    jaykay73 Member

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    Italo,

    What do mean by 60% mod depth? What is the reference point that 60% applies to? In other words what sweep is 60% going to achieve?

    Thanks,

    JK
     
  6. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    There is no way to know how any and every delay calculates that.
    Use your ears.
     
  7. jaykay73

    jaykay73 Member

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    I only have rack delays that (fortunately) have me, the user, choose the sweep of the modulation depth.

    I was interested in the ones you "like a lot" in post #2. What "zone" of modulation were you aiming for? Haas / flanging / microchorusing / long chorusing / ADT / rediculous pitch warping?

    This will lead on to some good discussion.

    Thanks,

    JK
     
  8. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    There isn't much to say there...
    I have used rack delays for these examples and they do not have depth in milliseconds. Just percentage.
    So you need to use your ears and find the spot you like.
    Two delays at 600 ms with only one being modulated will produce some psycho-acoustic panning. Fine tune the depth to the most striking effect.
    There is no way to say what 60% means. Just consider that it is some good depth on scale from 0 to 100%.
     
  9. jaykay73

    jaykay73 Member

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    Thanks,

    If the aim is psycho-acoustic panning then I know where the ballpark is.

    JK
     
  10. TheDentist

    TheDentist Member

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    Italo, I think there's a typo here...
    In this example dry signal is feeding dly1 via aux1, dly2 is feeding itself no signal so no circular anything is happening.
    Am I right or shall I go to hell and play a Boss delay pedal in mono for eternity?
     
  11. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    Yep. A typo!
    You spotted it. Thanks.

    It should be "gently set ch1 SEND2 and ch2 SEND1 to 9 0'clock."
    Obviously ch 3 (dry sound) needs to have both Aux 1 and 2 to send audio to both delays.
    Please try it and let me know... so I will correct the post above.
     
  12. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    I know, I know...
    I'm a spoiled ****er!
    :cool::oops:;)
    [​IMG]
     
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  13. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    Try this one too...
    DLY#1 : 50 ms // DLY#2 : 35 ms
    Null self feedback Aux Sends and only use ch1 SEND2 and ch2 SEND1 (x-feedbacks) set between 9 and 10 o'clock.
    If you have filters on board try a cut around 4000 Hz. Depending on where they are placed in the delays signal routing, you may hear a tonal difference... or not.
    By gently trying the cross feedbacks and filters you should not hear distinct delay taps... work a bit on them.
    Nice room-ish ambience!
     
  14. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    And here... a cool panning PHASER!
    Yep... very short microdelays act as filters (period sweeping). You need two digital delays capable of a finer resolution that 1 millisecond.

    Try:
    DLY#1 : 0.3 ms // DLY#2 : 0.5 ms
    Sweep both at 0.3 or 0.5 Hz with an 80% depth
    Set self feedbacks (CH1 Send1/CH2 Send2) at 9/10 o'clock. CAREFUL HERE as levels can be different in a mixer from another.
    You may even remove the center dry channel if your mixer allows you to...
    Try reversing the audio phase on one delay, the other or both.
    Try filters if you like.
    Sounds... deep!
     
  15. Anje

    Anje Supporting Member

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    Nice topic Italo, delays are an infinite playground. And one gotta love that dual TC2290 setup :beer
     
  16. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    You know... hangin' in there!
    :oops:
     
  17. ipm

    ipm Supporting Member

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    You know, this thread means nothing without clips!
     
  18. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    You got it all... every single setting. Why don't you record some?
     
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  19. ipm

    ipm Supporting Member

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    Ok, I'll try. But, it'll take time to set up everything for recording.
     
  20. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    No worry... we have time till death!
     
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