The Guthrie: Non-Fine Tuner Floyd rose + Tremol-No + Sperzel locking tuners = staying in tune?

Messages
12
Hey,
It's my first post here, I made an account specifically so I could ask about this. I'm pissed off at my floyd rose, (as I assume many a guitarist is) because it's not staying in tune. I took off the locking nut, and honestly I'm pretty sure that it's just because of the saddles. I was going to put in a block and change the bridge or something, but then I was watching a video of Mr. Guthrie Govan with his majestic Charvel, and I saw he didn't have a locking nut, but uses his Floyd like a madman. Lots of websites and interviews later, I've decided on the closest thing to his setup (which he swears works great). I'll put in a Non-Fine Tuner floyd rose, (Just because they get in the way of my hand. Then I'll skip the locking nut, but install locking tuners. I know they don't work the same way, but they will help. Finally, I'll put in a Tremol-No, for a wider variety of playing styles. What do you think?

Two more questions:

1) What would my breaking angle want to be? I don't really know how that works.

2) Would setting it up for D standard be an issue?

EDIT: is it possible to change the nut somehow?
Thanks!
 
Last edited:
Messages
296
Hmm...I've have had pretty decent luck with double locking guitars staying in tune. Is it a real Floyd (1000 or original) or a licensed floyd it shouldn't be going out? I'd make sure it's just the saddles causing the problem first, and not another issue like the trem not being set up right, strings stretching, neck stability ect. In theory your plan should work, but a few things I'd think about before doing it
1) Make sure your studs are going to be the same otherwise you'll be drilling a couple of new holes in the body of your guitar.
2) You'll have a big space where the fine tuners use to be.
3) You'll probably want to swap out the nut too.
4) Is this a cost effective solution? By the time you buy the nut, trem, tuners I imagine you'll be around the $300 mark, and doing these things to your guitar depending on the model most likely wont add any resale value but might take in away. Selling your axe and using that money towards another guitar that suits may be a better option.
5) As far as break angle goes I'd probably just set the trem/saddles parallel to the bridge and adjust you saddles for action from there, I think most 2 post bridges do fairly well this way, unless the manufacturer says different
6) I have an axe tuned with 10's to eb standard with a gotoh 510 recessed floating bridge with no tuning problems so I's imagine d standard wouldn't be an issue.

Hope that helps best of luck if you decide to go through with it.
 
Messages
11,778
My best results when not using a trem without a locking nut has been to have a LSR roller nut and locking tuners.
Keep in mind the LSR is only made to work with 1.687 nut width and a 9.5 or 10 radius.
Good luck with your situation.
 

McShred

Member
Messages
2,899
Hey,
It's my first post here, I made an account specifically so I could ask about this. I'm pissed off at my floyd rose, (as I assume many a guitarist is) because it's not staying in tune. I took off the locking nut, and honestly I'm pretty sure that it's just because of the saddles. I was going to put in a block and change the bridge or something, but then I was watching a video of Mr. Guthrie Govan with his majestic Charvel, and I saw he didn't have a locking nut, but uses his Floyd like a madman. Lots of websites and interviews later, I've decided on the closest thing to his setup (which he swears works great). I'll put in a Non-Fine Tuner floyd rose, (Just because they get in the way of my hand. Then I'll skip the locking nut, but install locking tuners. I know they don't work the same way, but they will help. Finally, I'll put in a Tremol-No, for a wider variety of playing styles. What do you think?

Two more questions:

1) What would my breaking angle want to be? I don't really know how that works.

2) Would setting it up for D standard be an issue?

Thanks!
was it staying in tune before you took the locking nut off?

Did you have a professional tech cut and install the new nut? Thats a complicated job, you have to build up the part of the neck that was cut away for the lock nut shelf, then make sure its securely set and the grooves are cut correctly.

I have a non fine tuner Floyd on a guitar, no lock nut, locking tuners, straight headstock pull. It stays in tune just fine, even under van halen level abuse.

One thing to keep in mind.... the new non tuner Floyd's have some issues. The knife edges are not cut very sharp, certainly not like a regular floyd, they are slightly rounded...which means more contact area, more friction, less apt to return to perfect pitch. They don't flutter... no idea if this is a result of the aforementioned knife edges or the trem being shorter without the fine tuner apparatus. Whatever the case, if you're expecting to execute Vai style flutters, it aint gonna happen. Guthrie started with the old school Floyd, but moved to a Fender designed bridge, I'm not sure if this was due to Fender being cheap and not wanting to have to buy the terms from Floyd rose when they could make them themselves... or if it was a result of the quality issues I mentioned.

If it was my money, knowing what I know about the unit I have... I would have gone with a regular floyd, w/ the fine tuners. They are just made better
 

walterw

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
38,273
One thing to keep in mind.... the new non tuner Floyd's have some issues. The knife edges are not cut very sharp, certainly not like a regular floyd, they are slightly rounded...which means more contact area, more friction, less apt to return to perfect pitch. They don't flutter...
wow, really?

a trem that doesn't "flutter" is a trem with drag on the pivot points and will never stay in tune! that does not pass muster at all.

hell, a good, well-set up bigsby trem will flutter at least a little.
 

walterw

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
38,273
I'm pissed off at my floyd rose, (as I assume many a guitarist is) because it's not staying in tune.
huh; a real floyd or a cheaper copy?

'cause staying in tune is usually the one thing properly working floyd users don't have a problem with. it's usually everything else, the overly "mechanical" nature of restringing and maintaining the thing.

as per the previous posts, does it "flutter" when you flick the bar? if not, you've likely got bad knife edges and a defective bridge.
 

MjS88

Member
Messages
262
I had a tuning problem with my Floyd once. It turned out the screws holding down the locking nut were a bit loose. Like mentioned here, if it's a proper Floyd set up correctly, it should stay in tune.
 
Messages
6,911
I have several Floyds, an original US made one with SAE spec allen screws and a couple of the early-80s metric ones, made by Schaller I think. Sure, they're kind of a pain to set up and a hassle to change & break in strings on, but once they're in tune they stay that way. Absolutely rock solid. There is no flutter and I could hold a guitar by just the bar and shake it- no deviation. (Used to do that sometimes, back in the day.)

Yes, they get checked before a show, mostly because of temperature variations. Even so, playing and even pretty extreme treatment will not put them out of tune. The only thing that'll do it is a broken string, or if the wrap on a wound string loosens; that has happened occasionally. Barring that, they're solid. That's the whole point of a Floyd- it's locked in.
 

Dexter.Sinister

Still breathing
Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
6,991
I'm pissed off at my floyd rose, (as I assume many a guitarist is) because it's not staying in tune. I took off the locking nut, and honestly I'm pretty sure that it's just because of the saddles.
I had a tuning problem with my Floyd once. It turned out the screws holding down the locking nut were a bit loose. Like mentioned here, if it's a proper Floyd set up correctly, it should stay in tune.
DTGF, I suspect this is the issue. Your FR is a system and all the parts work together. By removing the locking nut, you create a point where the strings slide forward and back. If they do not return to the exact position at which they were before reefing on the trem arm, you will be out of tune. Reinstall the nut, tighten it properly and check tuning stability. If it is OK, then you need to approach the apparent goal of shedding the locking nut by a different approach, perhaps as you suggested.

Why remove the locking nut? To facilitate string changes? If so, how often do you break strings and must you change them quickly?

Anywho, if reinstallation of the locking nut does not solve he tuning problem, have a FR adept tech examine the knife edge and set up the guitar.

Welcome to TGP.
 

Oldschool59

Member
Messages
1,810
I have a Suhr Custom that I had built with Govan specs (the Gotoh 510 bridge, the locking gears, the Tremol-No, etc...). I can say with confidence that it is rock-solid, and that it stays in tune better than my other guitars. One of the (important) reasons is the way that the nut is cut.

I cannot comment on the Charvel model, but I assume it would be the same, stability-wise, if Charvel put half the care & obsession that the Suhr guys do in building a perfect guitar.

Welcome to TGP.
 

PBGas

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,349
I always will use a locking trem on all of my guitars and I have always used them whether it be a Floyd, Ibanez Edge, lopro Edge or Edge zero. I've never had issues with it going out of tune and I use the bar quite a bit. I also do my own setups. If the fine tuners are in the way, I would suggest the Floyd Rose Pro model which moves them back a bit so they don't interfere with your playing.

Stability-wise, that Govan model with the locking tuners and locking saddles should work really well. The only area that would be the hangup would be the nut which you would need to keep lubed.
 
Last edited:

monty

Member
Messages
22,327
I had a tuning problem with my Floyd once. It turned out the screws holding down the locking nut were a bit loose. Like mentioned here, if it's a proper Floyd set up correctly, it should stay in tune.
Happened to me too. Tightened them now solid as a rock.
 

sg~guy

Member
Messages
682
-I had a -(factory)-Gibson v that had a khaler trem and locking tuner's, never went out of tune!!

-also one of my biggest regrets,... Sold it for $250..
-
 

rumbletone

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,856
I'm in the same boat - Suhr Modern with pretty much Govan specs. If I go really crazy with it - bar against body and shaking it wildly across most extreme range) - it can go out of tune, but under normal use (for me) it is fine. It's all about the setup, and fortunately Suhrs come from the factory with a really great setup. That said - I really like the Gotoh 510 - not sure how a Floyd without locking nut would be (I hate the sound and feel of them . . . haven't played them since the 80s...)

I have a Suhr Custom that I had built with Govan specs (the Gotoh 510 bridge, the locking gears, the Tremol-No, etc...). I can say with confidence that it is rock-solid, and that it stays in tune better than my other guitars. One of the (important) reasons is the way that the nut is cut.

I cannot comment on the Charvel model, but I assume it would be the same, stability-wise, if Charvel put half the care & obsession that the Suhr guys do in building a perfect guitar.

Welcome to TGP.
 
Messages
12
was it staying in tune before you took the locking nut off?

Did you have a professional tech cut and install the new nut? Thats a complicated job, you have to build up the part of the neck that was cut away for the lock nut shelf, then make sure its securely set and the grooves are cut correctly.

I have a non fine tuner Floyd on a guitar, no lock nut, locking tuners, straight headstock pull. It stays in tune just fine, even under van halen level abuse.

One thing to keep in mind.... the new non tuner Floyd's have some issues. The knife edges are not cut very sharp, certainly not like a regular floyd, they are slightly rounded...which means more contact area, more friction, less apt to return to perfect pitch. They don't flutter... no idea if this is a result of the aforementioned knife edges or the trem being shorter without the fine tuner apparatus. Whatever the case, if you're expecting to execute Vai style flutters, it aint gonna happen. Guthrie started with the old school Floyd, but moved to a Fender designed bridge, I'm not sure if this was due to Fender being cheap and not wanting to have to buy the terms from Floyd rose when they could make them themselves... or if it was a result of the quality issues I mentioned.

If it was my money, knowing what I know about the unit I have... I would have gone with a regular floyd, w/ the fine tuners. They are just made better
It wasn't starting in tune before I took off the nut.
Thanks for the advice, but what are knife edges? I don't really understand...
 

McShred

Member
Messages
2,899
It wasn't starting in tune before I took off the nut.
Thanks for the advice, but what are knife edges? I don't really understand...
the knife edge is where the trem pivots against the trem posts. the edge needs to be quite sharp to ensure perfect tuning stability.

This is just a guess, and please don't take offense as thats not my intention, but if you don't know what a knife edge is, you shouldn't be working on or setting up your trem, you'll probably just mess it up. unless the trem is a cheap Floyd knockoff, there is probably nothing wrong with it that a good setup by a competent guitar tech can't sort out. Take it to a good local tech (not the guys in Guitar Center) that should get you sorted out
 
Messages
12
the knife edge is where the trem pivots against the trem posts. the edge needs to be quite sharp to ensure perfect tuning stability.

This is just a guess, and please don't take offense as thats not my intention, but if you don't know what a knife edge is, you shouldn't be working on or setting up your trem, you'll probably just mess it up. unless the trem is a cheap Floyd knockoff, there is probably nothing wrong with it that a good setup by a competent guitar tech can't sort out. Take it to a good local tech (not the guys in Guitar Center) that should get you sorted out
No offence taken, you're probably right. I'm going to take it in probably sometime this week if it works out for me, I've got a really good local tech who helps me out sometimes.
 
Messages
12
I have several Floyds, an original US made one with SAE spec allen screws and a couple of the early-80s metric ones, made by Schaller I think. Sure, they're kind of a pain to set up and a hassle to change & break in strings on, but once they're in tune they stay that way. Absolutely rock solid. There is no flutter and I could hold a guitar by just the bar and shake it- no deviation. (Used to do that sometimes, back in the day.)

Yes, they get checked before a show, mostly because of temperature variations. Even so, playing and even pretty extreme treatment will not put them out of tune. The only thing that'll do it is a broken string, or if the wrap on a wound string loosens; that has happened occasionally. Barring that, they're solid. That's the whole point of a Floyd- it's locked in.
correction: that's how they should work. Unfortunately, mine is being a jerk.
 
Messages
12
Hmm...I've have had pretty decent luck with double locking guitars staying in tune. Is it a real Floyd (1000 or original) or a licensed floyd it shouldn't be going out? I'd make sure it's just the saddles causing the problem first, and not another issue like the trem not being set up right, strings stretching, neck stability ect. In theory your plan should work, but a few things I'd think about before doing it
1) Make sure your studs are going to be the same otherwise you'll be drilling a couple of new holes in the body of your guitar.
2) You'll have a big space where the fine tuners use to be.
3) You'll probably want to swap out the nut too.
4) Is this a cost effective solution? By the time you buy the nut, trem, tuners I imagine you'll be around the $300 mark, and doing these things to your guitar depending on the model most likely wont add any resale value but might take in away. Selling your axe and using that money towards another guitar that suits may be a better option.
5) As far as break angle goes I'd probably just set the trem/saddles parallel to the bridge and adjust you saddles for action from there, I think most 2 post bridges do fairly well this way, unless the manufacturer says different
6) I have an axe tuned with 10's to eb standard with a gotoh 510 recessed floating bridge with no tuning problems so I's imagine d standard wouldn't be an issue.

Hope that helps best of luck if you decide to go through with it.
As far as I can tell it's real.
1) I checked the dimensions, that's all fine.
2) I don't care about aesthetics that much.
3) I neen to figure out what I'm doing with the nut.
4) it's as cost effective as anything else. I'm saving up on the side for rob scallons 8 string, and my plan is to have that, and another good 6 string tuned to D standard. This is cheaper than buying two guitars. My logic is a bit weird but you wouldn't believe how much I've though this through.
5) setup wise I'm getting a local tech to do it.
6) good to know
 




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