Discussion in 'The Rack Space' started by italo de angelis, Dec 7, 2017.
Vortex can't do this!
Listen, guess, wonder, talk about it... here.
Delays Morphing Spirals
It's always really nice to hear some new, refreshing sounds from a machine that's been disregarded by so many moderns. It's been proven time and time again that the PCM is quite simply one of the most formidable weapons one can possess in creating auras that simply wrap around your signal and bloom into the distance. It's such a great box.
Spiral 6_2 that is an interesting space with that rhythmic rumble. I bet this is super fun to play with when you're in that mood where you just want to hear that lingering verb go on and on. I haven't jumped too far into diffused delays with the Lexicon, but based on some of your presets, it's clear to me that this can be an outstanding reverb machine, just by harnessing the power of the taps and glides. It might be cool to send those into a verb in series.
Spiral 5_4 is cool with those delays dancing around the stereo field. I played this one LOUD on the headphones and that nice phasing that's going on really adds a sort of mystery, doesn't it? Really cool sound, really cool playing. That one's got some dreams tucked inside of it.
Spiral 3_1 you can really hear things delays shifting patterns now. You can hear the electricity under there, can't you? Especially when they morph and phase in and out. There's some weird, unpredictable sh_t going on, if you REALLY listen to the details in there.
What I am mostly jealous of is that you've been able to play these sounds at home in your studio with verbs and delays from other stellar machines...a good man.
Guess what? I actually understand what you are talking about in your description.
Very different sounds indeed! Lovely!
A good man? Holy F__K! I'm not THAT old!
To tell you the truth, yes I could feed those sounds thru some nuts caressing reverbs and rejoice in the glory of that...
But I haven't even tried it.
Well... it's the nature of the "morphing" thing there, making things change and creating subtle details you have clearly heard thru the clips. That's where the ear gets caught.
Reverb is also part of what these morphs can create. So adding an external reverb might interfere with some aspects... it should be a very in the background verb, tweaked for each morph and hopefully making sense.
But yes, you heard the things in there, the unpredictable, the wild things, the quirks, the stuff making the sounds unique, not designed about top notch reverb or else... but becoming more of a textural painting of its own.
I wonder what THESE things may sound like when processing sources with long sustained tones, like E_bow gtrs (should restart using mine!) and synths! That might be a revealing experience.
The electricity, YES!!!! That's the ****, Billy! "I Sing The Body Electric" as the poet said...
So... morphing 2.0? We'll see...
working on glided delays morphing into reverb (nor reverb algos based, obviously)!
I couldn't possible guess what others may guess!
Now that I understand Glide, I listened and read the descriptions in your video. I was like Ohhh I completely understand what he's saying here! I wouldn't have been able to say that a month ago.
Good! But the more you tweak glide the better you're going to master it. It can be tedious and sometimes you'll make it go to hell and just use regular modulation. Then you come back at it and you hear why you did.
It's a bit of a love/hate thing as it's not as precisely controllable as one would want it to be... but hey... you can do MORPHING with it... and those "in between" dark spots... where some unpredictable **** happens? That's when you realize how gliding opens up a whole universe of sound design.
So... SLIDE THE GLIDE, bro!!!
I'm still at this and it's such a punk ass... I know I always have limited time, but I was really hoping to be further than I am already. I've got a week off of work between Christmas and New Year's Day. I will learn the glide and I will finally create my random reverb...
it really does take serious time for me to arrive at a place where I'm good with a preset i have been working on. something i don't usually seem to have enough of!!
btw great sounds Italo!
Just great, now I gotta hunt down one of those.
This one goes from a flanger to a delay based reverb, using a footswitch...
The second morph is way more complex... from a delay based reverb to a multi-voice delay to a chorus to a flanger.
Some transitions may be glitchy. Not easy to get rid of the problem. Need to play smartly or program different sequences of fx.
Very cool, these last two.
When I see this in my head, I picture a matrix of delays. Then I guess you scale the matrix to become a different type of effect. I think back to when you mentioned using really short RTs as modulations...it makes sense.
Very impressive PCM programming.
I wish I could do better... rather than more. And more will come.
There are several limitations/constraints in the PCM to do this kind of morphing work.
Bringing it over to Vsigfile is the real solution as only there I could not only build a structure for the task but also work ways around those limiting factors.
As an example... when feeding a signal to the diffusor on the PCM and controlling its status from OFF to any higher value... you get clicks. And that's perfectly understandable as you are messing with time delays. In a perfect world everything would be interpolated, even human beings, but it's not always the case in this world. I mean... who ever even had an idea about people doing this kind of stuff on the PCM80? A diffusor is mostly seen as a static thing, rather than something you may change its settings over and over again. That OFF position is the culprit. So... some morph may be better than others, if kept within a realm working correctly.
Interpolation needs DSP cycles... so the more interpolated functions in an algorithm, the harder work load is on the DSP. Some cycles can be saved for other tasks as most people don't need this kind of "attention to details" in all algorithms' corners.
On Vsig it would be much easier as I could simply use an AMPMOD (amplitude modulator) module and simply fade signal in or out to the diffusor and be easily done... sweet interpolation and all.
So... I'm wandering thru the obscure corners of the PCM, finding what I can use, what I should avoid and what can be used under certain conditions (some work/others don't).
There's a lot one can do... there's a lot one can't mess with...
The delays matrix is a good starting point for this parallel universe. You have a matrix on the H8000 I created with the Yamaha pedal in mind. I mentioned the presets numbers in another thread.
Now the matrix is ok... but it needs some spices that could be inserted in different points, when building the morphs.
I'd say spices could be one or two modfilters with an LFO, a couple of diffusors (maybe a diffchorus as one of them), a verb or a plex, a few ampmods for panning/tremolo and/or I/O level control, a few LFOs around, some control switching functions to allow a knob or pedal or footswitch to start a morph, a glide or a step thru different morphs.
Maybe a couple of frequency shifters for some nice ring modulating mangling or for those beautiful "gilmourish" Doppolas tones.
Add the real brain limbs to make this all work as it should... that is audio paths switching, re_routing functions, summing/splitting with control.
There are MANY modules in Vsig to use for these functions, like input or output switches (ISWITCH/OSWITCH/SWITCH), I/O crossfaders (CROSSIN/CROSSOUT/CROSSOUTQ), quad mixers (one can use them for mono or stereo or multi-channel tasks... don't have to be quad), matrix mixer (AUDIOMUX), regular mono or stereo mixers.... and all sort of knobs and control math functions for the handling tasks.
There are a couple of little things from the Vortex I made long ago, in the factory presets. But more can be done.
Hint: the Factors (and possibly a lot of the H9) are basically based on morphing only... but in a dummy way... just to get a couple of delays doing different ordinary things rather than getting creative with the possibilities offered by the platform. So... that proves a lot can be done in interesting directions by starting doing the work for it.
I mean... really.... imagine that and think about it... if Lexicon did what they did with a miserable under_powered chip in the Vortex... what one could build on an H8000 or Orville or big Tide, using that kind of power and openness? Another lost path for Eventide!
There is a lot of power and plenty of "sweet and remote corners building" there. The whole morphing thing doesn't have to be based on a LOT of audio modules to be cool. No need for a dozen delays in there... just a way to use less of them in interesting routings and include some extra audio processing on an input or output or a feedback path, with switching control. THERE you can create a lot of stuff.
The routing and control is THE hard work! There you can put your brain to some serious daring tests.
And BTW... any work of this kind? Must be done at low audio levels! You can get some odd or wrong audio re_routing hitting your ears with some killing blast of sounds. No no no--- you don't want that to happen.
More to come...
Another thing is....
once you have this more or less large "living" structure, where audio can be re_routed thru different areas/paths (fx) of it, while the blocks making the effects are also re_routed, switched, etc.
you get to the dark wonders! A morph, instant one, between two defined fx forms is cool but it doesn't really sound as something out of this world.
If you create a glide function, from A to B... in Vsig you can do that very easily and have a 2 minutes max time for A to B an back to A... or use a knob or pedal form physical control of the morph... those in between places is where you get the dark matter... "something that no longer is... not yet has become... but it's made of both and something else"... RIGHT THERE you are riding the straship to new worlds while you know nothing about them. That's where the fun lives and breathes.
This is definitely a task requiring some strong commitment and will to even throw away hours and days of work 'cuz something might just sound/work in a very ****** way. It doesn't matter as one learns from that and moves on... building it better or differently. That's the whole point for an open platform.
I believe that the definition of how to get "there" is possibly not so hard (the building work)... while there is no definition of those "dark zones" as they are just not existing. One needs to make 'em to realize what they are and do. Columbus knew how to get there but he had no idea about what he was about to find and face. That's the double mirror power of Vsig... you get to see who you are/what you know or not in it... and you get to foresee consequences of what you do... it should be compulsory subject in any school on the planet.
do you get better control of the timbre and dynamic behavior of the effect when you build reverbs from delays and bypass the reverb?
i like the effect because it almost sounds more pure, and as i tend to find the diffusion in the pcm to be restricting in it's shared location within the algorithm, it seems that theoretically you have a better ability to dedicate diffusion to just delay and avoid it doing double duty in the reverb shell, or vice versa, but what is the advantage in your estimation?
No. Tonal and reverb envelopes are just different and not so much controllable as one may be used to. The PCM80 wasn't designed to do what I do with it.
But you need the diffusion! Absolutely... it's one of the tricks in the algorithm. It's shared.
The question... the advantage of what, exactly?
Need more coffee, but I'm guessing that's a question about the shared diffusers in the MBand + Rvb algorithm. It's an odd choice (other from a processor resource perspective, maybe) that can be weird to live with if one is using both delays and reverb. But I gather from previous discussion that some interesting magic is in there.
Not only in that algorithm...
Sound is nice when both fx are diffused as they sound more natural.
what in your opinion is the advantage of creating a reverb from scratch using the delays from the fx engine (I'm assuming it's just the delays in the fx engine and not the reverb shell delays),
versus just using the pre-existing reverb tools built in to the reverb section of the algorithm?
while on the subject, have you ever tried reversing the order, using the dual fx card to feed reverb shell eko delay with diffusion into fx engine modulated delay?
Overall you get two different kind of reverbs. The envelope is just another thing: in the reverb algorithms you have access to some parameters that will slightly change the envelope and how much you are going to hear internal delays or not... but pretty much everything is under the hood and you can't change anything you'd like to. Lexicon does that so their reverbs can be always usable in some way and you can't "peep in" their structures.
When you work with delays (not the verb shell ones) you can change more details, like their time, modulation, panning, level, feedback, filters when available. You can even patch modulators to them to create impossible thing in the regular reverbs. But whatever you do, they just sound different in shape and texture. The regular verbs use a lot more delay lines and sound denser, particularly at low decay times. The verbs based on the 6 delay lines can be more 3D and deep but the texture is raw, like in earlier reverbs models. They are mostly usable for long decays and special colors. Can't be defined as Hall, Chamber, Room, Plate because they aren't anything like them. So the main advantage is variety... you have an extra choice for reverb and it gets closer to other styles/processors sounds based on multi-tap delay approaches.
There is one important aspect to consider... those 6 delays where introduced in the extra algorithms that came out with the 224XL (not the 224). And they have been on board on pretty much all other units (480/some 300 stuff/70/80/81/90/91). The reason to have those delays was to create early reflections around the reverb or inside it (for the few units that can do this too). The 70/80/81 added new possibilities very likely by accident as it was never an evidence of this type of reverbs in any of the factory presets. I discovered this possibility "by accident" on the 70, using an Atari editor with randomization... which spit out a marvelous sound doing just the right thing. I learned that and used on the 80/81 because of the identical structure of the chorus algorithm.
The DualFX card makes this kind of reverbs a bit different. A problem is that you loose two delays, going down to 4. The power is needed to allow for the extra 4 filters in the mixer blocks and the routing possibilities. They had to take down something to add those extra features... So you won't get the same reverb density out of 4 lines. The other problem is that you no longer have diffusion in the delays algorithms which IS a key element to do these verbs. So, whatever you do with diffused shell dlys>4 delays isn't going to sound as those reverbs. But yes, I have tried and have several presets using that scheme, mostly for delays cascading stuff.
The delay_verbs belong to the regular 6 voice chorus algorithm, nothing else.