The Problem of FRFR Highlighted in This Video

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by Mark Al, May 18, 2019.

  1. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    You couldn't compensate for Fletcher Munson that way. You're describing a kind of multiband compressor, which already exists in the Axe-Fx.
     
  2. the swede

    the swede Member

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    I have been using my FRFR (Headrush) lying on its side, but on a chair to elevate it.
    So that's why I hear the highs fall off so quick to the sides, the speaker seems to have a great spread though.
    Maybe I should try it in standing position so I get better coverage with the tweeter... may also help me dial in presets better :D
     
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  3. John Mark Painter

    John Mark Painter Silver Supporting Member

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    Are you used to open back cabs?
    I always 100% aim amps at my head.

    Fat toanz with amp firing at your ankles es no bueno
     
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  4. theRagman

    theRagman Gold Supporting Member

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    I find a lot of stock IRs to be intolerably bright, probably because they are designed to be dropped into a studio mix without much extra eq. Live and at volume, I just don't want that much treble.

    Also, SM57s have a peak in their response curve right around the "ow it hurts" frequency. For most applications, I prefer a Royer R-121, and I *definitely* prefer R-121s for IRs for live use.

    YMMV and all that, of course. :)
     
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  5. gzii

    gzii Member

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    With my FRFR monitors, when the sound is too bright when I am close to the speaker, it is good at distance.
    If it is good when you are close, maybe it is dull at distance.
    Sometimes I put a textile on the tweeter, or ear protection.
    Now My monitor for the guitar is my old Mustang III so it will be better (and DBR10 coming from the thru of the FOH).
     
  6. John Mark Painter

    John Mark Painter Silver Supporting Member

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    That is kind of like saying that if your tone is too bright, just wear ear plugs :)
    It is entirely possible that your tone is simply too bright
     
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  7. gzii

    gzii Member

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    Yes it could be that.

    I know when the sound is good in front at distance, the thru with this same sound to the same speaker just in front of me is too bright for me when playing.
    I sometimes feel like the sound is agressive and harsh but the people I know in front don't feel it agressive at all. Seems the same with sound engineers because with the thru I have their settings.
    I was just thinking that the high frequencies dissipate with distance.
    Or maybe it is my ears (I'm often not happy with the sound, reverbs, the echoes of the walls, some rooms are good and some are not, and it is ofter better with ear protection because I don't hear so much of that, but I like to feel the sound with the body).

    I think this difference with distance could be, because I like the sound of a guitar amp but I don't like the beam, and at the position of the mic the sound is no more pleasant (the better sound for me was with a Hoovi Deeflexx in front of the cabinet)
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  8. DunedinDragon

    DunedinDragon Member

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    I ALWAYS dial in my tone with my speaker (DXR12) at about chest height and about 5 to 6 feet away from me and generally at performance level volume. That tends to best simulate what you'll hear from most FOH systems. Also, because of the way powered speakers project sound as compared to cabinets I'll vary my position and stand off-axis or even turn my back toward the speaker to get a better understanding of what the audience will hear. So far I've never been disappointed at all in my live sound unless it's a truly awful PA system.

    The thing is, when dealing with a guitar through a PA system you're not going to get a "cabinet" sound, because it's not a cabinet. Even if you mic a true cabinet and feed it to a PA you're going to get a PA mic'd cabinet sound, not a cabinet sound. The sound you're looking for is the sound you would hear at any major concert, which is not the cabinet sound. It's the sound of a cabinet that has been mic'd correctly with the right type of mics to best represent the sound of that cabinet. Once you get that concept in mind, dialing in an appropriate tone is a piece of cake. It's all a matter of selecting the right IR with the right mic setup and you're probably going to be 80% there.
     
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  9. DunedinDragon

    DunedinDragon Member

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    What may be useful for you is what I do which is to place my stage monitor behind me on a half height stand in the vertical position on the backline. This provides ample space for allowing the horn and the speaker to blend properly. It also distributes the sound better across the width of the stage since powered speakers have a wider sound cone in the vertical position than they do in the horizontal position by design.
     
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  10. Drop the sun

    Drop the sun Member

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    My tip is to use 10band EQ after the amp. Cut 4kHz from 2dB to 10dB.

    Question: How to know how much cut is the "right" amount?

    Answer: Play a chord and let it ring. Move the 4kHz slider down and try to listen when the high frequency hiss dissapears. Leave the 4kHz slider there. You might wanna finetune the high end with 1kHz, 2kHz and 8kHz sliders. +/- 1dB is a good place to start.

    On the cab block high cut should be around 8kHz-12kHz depending the IR and your amp settings. Too much high cut and the tone becomes dull.

    Hope this helps.

    -DTS
     
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  11. gzii

    gzii Member

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    It could be good if it was for guitar only.
    It is the thru of all, the singers, other instruments... So it is a problem with the mics.
    But sometimes we put the monitors on their poles in the front and yes it is better.
    But now I will take my Mustang, open 1x12 so it will help for the guitar sound on stage.
    It is better for rehearsals and cheaper than a powercab, I hope it will be good.
     
  12. gzii

    gzii Member

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    8k seems high when I compare to my guitar cab.
     
  13. Drop the sun

    Drop the sun Member

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    You mean, that you'd like to cut more?
     
  14. gzii

    gzii Member

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    I don't know, sometimes I don't define any Hi Cut because it could give something to clean sounds.
    But it seems the guitar cab don't cut so high.
    hi cut at 8k seems like if it is (12 or 18 ?) dB less at 16k (an octave).
    But it depends the IR you use too.
    On my celestion G12T100, 8khz makes no difference and on my dbr10, 6k gives maybe about the same thing than the celestion without any cut (with OH DRVB CTS on the DBR10)
     
  15. Drop the sun

    Drop the sun Member

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    Try the 10band EQ tip and high cut from the cab block to your own taste. I don't use high cut for cleans at all. But I do use EQ block to fine tune clean tones as well.
     
  16. PB26

    PB26 Member

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    According to Tone Junkie, the Mission cab was actually designed with boosted highs in the 'flat' position to accommodate acoustic players, i.e., 'flat' isn't 'flat.' With the knob backed off a bit, you're actually getting a more neutral FRFR response, i.e., 'flat'. Check out this video from 2:44 onward:
     
  17. Mark Al

    Mark Al Member

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    Update: after spending some quality time with my PA loud, I am getting much better results now. I am getting warm, round, fat tones in loud volume, which sometimes even confused me to think it's AITR...!

    The Helix's stock cab's high cuts responds quite differently than EQ's high cuts. My current settings is to use single Helix cabs, 57mic, 3 inch away(too close the low mids congest up, too far low mids spread thin), low cut to taste, then high cuts is set between 3.1Khz-3.8Khz depending on the amp/cab.

    Surprisingly, those aggressive cab high cut get my PA to sound and respond beautifully in high volume. The guitar sounds really good when I am playing by myself, and once I play in a mix, I expect to add a bit high end back for it to cut better....

    Anyway, super happy about the results :)
     
  18. the swede

    the swede Member

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    One thing you should try.
    Make a duplicate preset.
    In that preset, remove your cuts in the cab block.
    Use the EQ high/low cut block.
    Try to match the cuts with the preset that you have cuts in the cab block.
    If your cab high cuts is around 4, you should end up with around 8khz in the EQ cut block :)

    This pretty much correaponds to the general recomendation for high cuts for guitar sound. Ive seen studio techs recomending that area, some IR producers are also recomending it as a starting point.

    The difference will be that the steeper EQ cut will keep much of the good stuff, while the shallower cab cuts will ”eat” away stuff we want to keep.

    At loud volumes, like situation you described, i much prefer the EQ block cut as it sounds much fuller and tonaly complete.

    Also, at high volumes, the 409 and sm7 shines up. The 409 can sound boring in headphones or low volume, but loudness wakes it up alot and can be a more neutral alternative compared to 57.

    Only downside is that it uses a block :D and for a Stomp user that may de a dealbreaker. The cab cuts work and will do the job. Its just that they have so ”flat” or shallow slopes.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
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  19. Mark Al

    Mark Al Member

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    Ah ha, that makes sense! Thank you @the swede, I will definitely give it a try!
     
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  20. Dave Merrill

    Dave Merrill Supporting Member

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    Unless the Empower knob is midi controllable, that whole philosophy is kind of bogus if you're using a mix of acoustic (or clean) and driven electric. Much better to do your cuts in the modeler, not the cab.
     

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