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Theory Du Jour

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by Lucidology, Jan 28, 2008.

  1. Lucidology

    Lucidology Member

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    Today I'm hearing curry-ish flat nines over Dominate Seven chords ,,,
    Seems to work beautifully as long as the other spices (intervals) are in harmony ... :)

    If you'd like it a bit less on the mild side ... try adding some minor 6ths (warning: only for the brave)
     
  2. kimock

    kimock Member

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    You mean lingering melody tone type thing as opposed to scale step?
    There are two very different basic intonations for that flat nine (misnomer)
    depending on where you're going with it or where you're coming from with the melody.

    Same deal if you want to get into it.

    peace sk
     
  3. Lucidology

    Lucidology Member

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    Next time you're playing over a E7th chord static groove ...
    Have fun with this scale ...(nothing unusual, but still somewhat exotic ...)

    E, F, G#, A, B, C, D ...
     
  4. Lucidology

    Lucidology Member

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    Yes , the lingering type....
    (& I'm also just being silly ...)

    Would you care more to elaborate upon those "basic intonations" ...?
    Very curious about this ..?

    By the way, I recently picked up your New Year's Eve Live DVD from some years back ..
    What a great band & great playing performed by all of you ...
    Great Thanks for that too..!!
     
  5. Lucidology

    Lucidology Member

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    Exactly -- make it an eight note scale & mix up your sevenths...
    Minor & Major ... From almost Arabic to Rag Padi

    See... you're already hip to using that curry spiced sound ..!!
     
  6. KRosser

    KRosser Member

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    Lately I've been experimenting with taking two 'blues scales' a 5th apart and smashing them together...

    I.E. -

    E blues - E G A Bb B D

    B Blues - B D E F F# A

    Mash 'em up and you get -

    E F F# G A Bb B D from the 'E' perspective, or

    B D E F F# G A Bb from the 'B'
     
  7. decay-o-caster

    decay-o-caster Member

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    I found myself noodling on a 1 - 2 - b3 - #4 - 5 - 6 - b7 scale yesterday. Now I gotta dig through my copy of Zucker to find out what the hell I was playing. It's damn hard to avoid playing a 4th, but I like the scale a lot without it. And I also found myself coming down on the 2 like it was the tonic, which is probably worth exploring a bit to figure out why.
     
  8. kimock

    kimock Member

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    OK, here goes. Let's do this in the key of E.
    There are two pitches that that second fret F could stand for that have very different melodic affect and different harmonic generation as intervals.

    One of them is quite a bit below the fretted pitch, one just a little above.

    It might help to tune your guitar to an E chord for this, so you've got a drone to listen to, and it's gonna help if you can use a slide and/or sing the harmony, but you can do it without as well.

    Let's tune it up.
    On your open A string, in standard tuning, play the harmonic right behind the fourth fret. The 5th partial, the one that sounds a major third.

    Tune your B string up to that C# harmonic. For unison that would be the 12th fret on the second string. (it's a C# now, right?)

    Compare that open C# string to the low A string, open, and make sure you've got a nice smooth major third: not sharp.

    Now, taking the second string as your new root, sing up a major third, nice and smooth. Play that C# string a bunch of times, singing that major third above until you're sure you've got a really good bead on that quality of interval.

    Now continue singing that third without sounding the C# and play your low E string open. Hear that interval?
    That's your morning rag flat two.

    The cool thing about that note when you hear it in it's proper place as two thirds above a fifth below, is it still has all the beauty and sweetnes of your straight up major third, just more of it. . .

    Beautiful melody note, with none of the jangly, weird 12 tone thing happening. A go to pitch, a frickin' overtonal major third.

    OK, the same way that that flat second can be imbued with that quality of the overtonal major third, you can continue up the scale, locating each additional pitch by refering to the 5th partial of the tonic. All the pitches that result will have that quality of "thirdness".

    Easiest to hear this with the guitar tuned to E major.
    E B E G# B E.
    Tune your third string G# to agree with the 5th partial of the E string below it, make sure it's not sharp.

    Now that first pitch can be reckoned as a 6th above your G# string.
    My Bonnie, etc.
    Continue up from E#, G#, A#, C#, D#, tuning each pitch in harmony with the G# string, and check out the effect.

    For me anyway, that's truly bitonal, beautifully melodic, and so out if you get the intonation right that the weirdest sound you can make is to hit the root or fifth straight up.

    Get the idea?
    If that makes any sense to you, let me know, and we can do the high side later.

    peace sk
     
  9. chopsley

    chopsley Silver Supporting Member

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    That's the fourth mode of harmonic minor, I believe. Nice one.
     
  10. Bryan T

    Bryan T Guitar Owner Silver Supporting Member

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    That is one of my favorite scales. I've heard it called the Arabic scale or the Byzantine scale.

    Bryan
     
  11. decay-o-caster

    decay-o-caster Member

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    Bless your heart, chopsley - I wasn't looking forward to researching this one!
     
  12. decay-o-caster

    decay-o-caster Member

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    Wow! :eek:

    I'm not sure how to ask without sounding even more idiotic than usual, but is this something that can be used playing with other musicians? Or are the pitches off enough from standard tuning that you can only use it solo?

    Thanks very much for the explanation and the ideas - I need to try this stuff out when I can immerse myself in it.
     
  13. gennation

    gennation Member

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    Lucid, that's an E Phygian Dominant scale. It's the 5th mode of the A Harmonic Minor scale, but very much more a scale in it's own right.

    I have two comprehensive tutorials dealing with the scale that I think you'll dig:

    http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/PhryDom/PhryDomTOC.htm (this one is in D Phry Dom)

    and

    http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/IndSlide2/indslidehome_frames.htm (this one is in E Phry Dom)

    It'll show you some of the great sound buried in the scale.

    Enjoy!!!
     
  14. gennation

    gennation Member

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    Ken, you should shout this from the mountain. I've been doing this for a few years now and there is so much music in this idea, and it's SO simple, that I'm surprised this isn't taught instead of all the scale patterns that we normally are force to learn.

    This is one of the "gem" ideas that starts changing "playing" into "music" I think. I have a few full blown tutorials in progression on this exact subject.
     
  15. Lucidology

    Lucidology Member

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    Thanks Mike ... Very, very cool stuff ..

    I've been using this scale with my Mizmar (snake Charmer) synth sound
    when playing for Belly dancers for well over a few years now ....
    IN fact, should be posting a clip soon where I even used it with our fusion band ...

    Your site is sooo full of wonderful stuff ....
    Hope folk around here are aware of how graciously helpful you are ...
     
  16. willhutch

    willhutch Supporting Member

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    This creates a scale with eight notes. Kinda like the "bebop scales", if you start on the root and run the scale using eighth-notes, you'll arrive on the root note (an octave up) on beat one of the next bar.
     
  17. KRosser

    KRosser Member

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    There's ways to learn Chinese, you know....a couple billion Chinese people did it...
     
  18. gennation

    gennation Member

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    I've delved into this concept quite a bit and it seems to be an exploit of tetra-chords. On top of the Minor Pent and Blues scales you can also use the 2/9 (taking the Key into consideration for it being a 9 or b9).

    I broke them out to the basic types of "7" chords and found this to be true...I'll use Min Pent as the basis, then you can add the blue note and the appropriate 9. And, even though there is more I'll only present the strongest ones....

    maj7 = Min Pent from the M3 and the 6.
    m7 = Min Pent from the Root and the 5th
    Dom7 = Min Pent from the 5th
    m7b5 = Min Pent form the m3

    Again, I'm only showing the strongest harmonically. Since there are really three Min Pent scales in a Key, each of those chords could have all three associated with them, but the one's I've presented seem to be the strongest, err...the hippest. Remember to add the blue note for each as well as the appropriate 9.

    When you get familiar with them and you take a chromatic progression like Night & Day (from the Real Book):

    F#m7b5-Fm7-Em7-Ebdim7-Dm7-G7-Cmaj7

    Using the appropriate Min Pent/Blues scales for each chord, you'll find these are an amazing option to use. You're lines will flow form chord to chord and accent the progression beautifully. And, they don't sound linear either like some arpeggio approaches do.

    And, when you look at the b5 sub for the V7 (G7 in this case) you create a nice flowing line from the F#m7b5 all the way to the Cmaj7.

    Didn't mean to hijack the thread, but if you spend a couple of months with this idea you will find yourself breaking the "box of scales" and playing some nice musical lines.

    Again sorry Luc, didn't mean to hijack.
     
  19. KRosser

    KRosser Member

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    In posting it on the internet I thought that's what I was doing, metaphorically speaking

    I do teach stuff like this all the time, to those willing to 'go there'....which is not many folks in my experience.

    Well, that's always the goal no matter what you do, right? I hope....
     
  20. gennation

    gennation Member

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    The first time I stumbled on it was in Miles and Adderley's solo's on So What. Then a couple of weeks later I found the same thing while copping bari sax licks from Roy's Blues on Stan Kenton's Fire Fury and Fun album. That's when things started clicking and I started noticing it all over the place from the Satin Doll (ii-V-I's in general), to George Benson, etc...

    A few years later I'm able to see/hear/use it almost every where. This is how people should be taught I think, as opposed to the common patterns we all experience at an early stage and that seem to box so many people in. It's the link between dealing with the chord individually and as part of the progression or Key.

    It's a great tool.
     

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