Thinking of selling my VHT UL....

[cancelthesound]

And getting a Diezel Herbert. Any current Herbert owners and UL owners please chime in. Somebody talk me out of it. I've also got a Diezel VH4S currently.

I love the Ultralead. The efx loop is great (I run a Line 6 Echo Pro in parallel), and it seems to take pedals really well. But I tried a Herbert a few weeks ago and it kicks ass as well. I was initially thinking of letting the VH4S go and getting the Herbert, but I can't bring myself to let that one go. The Herbert reminds me of the ultralead in a number of good ways.

Should I stick with the UL? How does the Herbert take pedals? How is the loop on the Herbert? How does the Herbert record (compared to the UL, is it easier or harder to capture on tape)?
I like having the tonal differences of the UL and VH4S, is the Herbert going to be too similar to VH4S?

Should I consider any other amplifiers? I would want something with similar features to the UL. I personally prefer the VHTs to Bogners, so I'm not really considering them at the moment.

I know Wizard of Ozz has experience with both of these so I'm hoping he'll chime in.

 

[Joe]

I found that the VH4-S made my Ubershall and Ultra Lead redundant so I sold them off.

 

[cancelthesound]

Originally posted by Joe
I found that the VH4-S made my Ubershall and Ultra Lead redundant so I sold them off.

Hey Joe! I like having both the UL and the VH4S. The UL is a very capable back up and a great amp in it's own right. The only thing I noticed about the VH4S is that since I usually have the mids cranked when I go to play fasters palm muted lines, I don't get quite enough bite and high end as I would like, the sound is just a little too round (if that's a good description) because I don't scoop the mids normally. I like the way UL and Herbert sound in this respect and the UL sounds great for the real heavy/evil stuff...as I imagine the herbert would as well. Have you ever tried an EQ pedal with the VH4S? How do you think it takes pedals?

 

[Joe]

put at rack eq in loop 4

 

[cancelthesound]

Good suggestion. What efx are you running with yours? Have any delays when switching patches? I was thinking about it the eq for Channel 3 actually, that's where I spend most of my time. That and the 2nd channel.

 

[Joe]

Channel 3 doesn't get heavy enough IMO for Nu-Metal scooped tones.

Rocktron Pro-Q is a GREAT unit.

 

[cancelthesound]

Originally posted by Joe
Channel 3 doesn't get heavy enough IMO for Nu-Metal scooped tones.

Rocktron Pro-Q is a GREAT unit.

At least on my VH4S (I've got an older version), I found that channel 4 is way too compressed, especially for rhythm, I can't get the volume to boost up above channel 3. It always sounds like there is a volume drop whenever I go from channel 3 to 4.

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

Originally posted by cancelthesound

I know Wizard of Ozz has experience with both of these so I'm hoping he'll chime in.

They are both great amps. The biggest difference between them to my ears, is that the voicing of the Herbert is more liquid with more sag and give to it. The UL is a very tight, dry, and foucsed amp. Also the UL's attack is much faster (but it's also faster than just about any other tube amp I can think of). The UL is a brighter amp with more high-mids and treble, while Herbie has more low-mids and a darker overall voicing.
As far as FX loops go, you wont find a better loop than either of these amps. Both Stevie and Peter have the best loops of any channel switcher I know of. They're both very trasparent with little color or tone suckage. Also they both work with a wide variety of FX inlcuding both rack units and pedals, which is something I can't say for some other hi-gain channel switchers. The Herbert also sounds great with pedals especially thru the clean channel or thru channel 2 in (-) mode.

They do have some similarites in that both are very honest sounding amps. What you put in, is what you get out; there's nothing to hide behind. The gain on both is extremely useable at all settings. There is no point at which it gets too oversaturated and basically just starts compressing the tone which happens on many other hi-gainers I've owned.

I know of a few guys that own both the Herbert & VH4, so there appears to be enough of a difference to justify owning one of each. Personally I like the Herbert more, cause it's basically taylor made to the style of music I play (prog metal with some classic rock). I've heard some say that it is easier to record the VH4 because of it's flatter eq it tracks better. I'm not much into recording though.

I do think that the Herbert covers more tones from clean to mean, especially the inbetween tones. The UL has a great clean channel, but is slightly lacking in the medium gain rock zone (ie AC/DC, Aerosmith, Zepplin), but it unquestionably has one of the best lead tones for hard rock or metal around. Also the Herbert can get heavier and more modern sounding than the UL which is something to keep in mind. Both are great amps and neither is better than the other, so to speak. It just really depends on your needs and personal preference.

Hope that helps.

 

[cancelthesound]

Originally posted by Wizard of Ozz
The UL is a very tight, dry, and foucsed amp. Also the UL's attack is much faster (but it's also faster than just about any other tube amp I can think of). The UL is a brighter amp with more high-mids and treble, while Herbie has more low-mids and a darker overall voicing.

This is why I'm torn. I just love the attack on the UL, but I though the Herbert had a pretty good attack as well. The Herbert is definitely one of the darkest sounding amps I've played.

Originally posted by Wizard of Ozz
As far as FX loops go, you wont find a better loop than either of these amps. Both Stevie and Peter have the best loops of any channel switcher I know of.

Soo true!!!!

Originally posted by Wizard of Ozz
The Herbert also sounds great with pedals especially thru the clean channel or thru channel 2 in (-) mode.

I really like having the effects at my feet, I just feel like i have more control (probably mostly in my head). I wish the (+/-) mode was footswitchable, that would probably seal it. I use the most effects on clean to medium gain sounds, I feel like it just gets lost on higher gain stuff.

Originally posted by Wizard of Ozz
The UL has a great clean channel, but is slightly lacking in the medium gain rock zone (ie AC/DC, Aerosmith, Zepplin), but it unquestionably has one of the best lead tones for hard rock or metal around.

I can get some pretty good medium gain tones when I use the UL's rhythm channel on normal gain. But I agree, there is still something missing here. I think the 2nd channel on my VH4S does this really well, could be a little thicker. I imagine I could eq it a little differently and get there, but i like to have a little kick going from channel 2 to channel 3. I'm hesistant to get it modded cause I love it so much.

Originally posted by Wizard of Ozz
Hope that helps.

Thanks!!! You just pointed out all the reasons I love the UL and the things I like about the Herbert.
This is exaclty why it's such a hard decision. The UL has served me well and it would be bitter sweet seeing it go out the door. On the other hand I'm sure I would be extremely happy with the Hebert. I just wonder if I would miss the Ultralead too much. So many amps so little time.

I would really like something that records well. I thought the UL was a little easier to capture in the studio than the VH4S, the engineer really liked the VH4S... so maybe I should just hang on to them both. I wish I knew what Mr. Diezel was cooking up next, if it's an update version of the VH4 with some of the abilites of the Herbert thrown in then I would probably be there in a second. That would make my decision easier. There are elements I hear in the Herbert that I think would make the VH4 even better.....hmmm maybe we should make that another topic....

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

Originally posted by cancelthesound
So many amps so little time.

So true. Definitely a tough call, but you can't go wrong either way.

 

[cancelthesound]

Originally posted by frascati
My VH4 was always better in someone else's hands than mine (although channel 3 was so good).

Yep. Channel 3 is the my favorite, that and I really like channels 1 and 2 as well. After playing it side by side with a Herbert, I just couldn't let the VH4S go. I was the opposite, i prefered hearing my buddy play the Herbert and he prefered me through the VH4. His style is much more in the Nu-metal/modern sound then mine, I think mine is a little more classic/hard rock oriented. I don't really consider myself a metal player, that's why I don't want to get rid of the VH4S.

The Herbert has a darker quality and I think it's closer to the UL tonally. The Herbert and the VH4 are very different amps, and the VH4S is completely different from my UL as well. So that's why I started thinking about unloading the UL and getting the Herbert. The Herbert does the evil stuff that the UL can do, that I just can't get out of the VH4S. But the VH4S does the killer hard rock marshall on steriods sound that I love.

I had a VHT CLX briefly but it had reverb and no depth control, I don't like reverb on high gain amps and I need the depth control. Had the CLX had the depth control or no reverb I might still have...and my have never purchased a VH4S....but I'm glad I did.

I wish I could have all 3 but I can't justify that. Maybe I should keep the VH4S and the UL and get something that can do killer cleans - low gain sounds....maybe a Vox AC30 or something along those lines....that or get a killer clean sounding amplifier.

 

[rbone100]

Why not both?

I might be looking for a UL

 

[cancelthesound]

Originally posted by rbone100
Why not both?

I might be looking for a UL

Did you get my last email?

Have both the Herbert and the VH4S? That's pretty insance...It's a hard call they are all killer amps. The UL has served me well both for live and recording purposes. I've heard the herbert is hard to catch on tape...the UL was really easy to capture. The Herbert is a killer amp and I was very impressed across the board. The UL has the onboard eq, which in some circles is sacrilage, but I was able to do some very interesting things with it. Too bad used diezels prices aren't $1000 less...that would make things very interesting....heck if they cost as much as a used VHT that would be perfect, I could swing that. Even if I sell the UL, I still have to come up with close to $1500 I may have to rethink this. I really should get something that can do some killer clean sounds....or something in the lower gain department.

 

[Joe]

Have you tried any tube upgrades to your Diezel?

Mine has a RCA gray plate for V1, Mullards in V2&V3, and a nos Chinese in V4.

I have Mullard EL34s and Phillips 6L6 tubes, better cleans with the 6L6s IMO but I use the el34s mainly.

 

[cancelthesound]

Originally posted by Joe
Have you tried any tube upgrades to your Diezel?

Mine has a RCA gray plate for V1, Mullards in V2&V3, and a nos Chinese in V4.

I have Mullard EL34s and Phillips 6L6 tubes, better cleans with the 6L6s IMO but I use the el34s mainly.

No I haven't tried any tube upgrades. I've got a set of ruby tubes (preamp and power) that I purchased from Uwe. I'm going to put them in about a month or so. My old tubes still have some legs though, it has only been about 8 months since they were retubed (EHX EL34s). I don't really like 6L6s for high gain and crunch so I'm sticking with the EL34s.

Can you describe what you think your tube choices did to the overall sound of your VH4S?

 

[cancelthesound]

Hey Wizard of Ozz, what do you think of the UL's clean versus the Herbert's? I was playing both my UL and VH4S last night. The UL's clean sounds really good and huge compared to the VH4S, but there are some really cool elements to the VH4S' clean sound it's more even and brighter to me.

 

[Joe]

Originally posted by cancelthesound


Can you describe what you think your tube choices did to the overall sound of your VH4S?

The point of a channel switcher is to be able to mimic several tones with a single amp. I found the tube upgrades made the amp do what I wanted.

Ch 1: Fender cleans
Ch 2: SRV kinda tone
Ch 3: Marshall tones
Ch 4: Nu-metal pummel

I find I can cope any tone other than the Dumble thing about 90%, and in the mix, that is good enough. I don't have the energy or time compare every last detail of every amp on earth, its good enough.

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

Originally posted by cancelthesound
Hey Wizard of Ozz, what do you think of the UL's clean versus the Herbert's? I was playing both my UL and VH4S last night. The UL's clean sounds really good and huge compared to the VH4S, but there are some really cool elements to the VH4S' clean sound it's more even and brighter to me.

The biggest difference is that the clean of the UL is more of a HiWatt 100 clean (dry, tons of head room, very focused) whereas the Herbie's clean is more like a Fender Balckface Twin (more bounce, chime, warmth to it). Between the VH4 & UL, I like the UL's clean better. The VH4 sounded a little too sterile & lifeless to me. But between the Herbie & UL, I like Herbie's clean better because of the more Fender-like qualities. I also use 6L6GCs in my Herbert as opposed to EL34s. You might want to try 6L6GCs, because it'll make a huge difference in your cleans, especially when you crank it. EL34s with a hot preamp are sometimes not the best power tubes to use.

 

[cancelthesound]

Originally posted by Wizard of Ozz
I also use 6L6GCs in my Herbert as opposed to EL34s. You might want to try 6L6GCs, because it'll make a huge difference in your cleans, especially when you crank it. EL34s with a hot preamp are sometimes not the best power tubes to use.

I really prefer EL34s for my distorted tones though. So I sacrifice a little in the clean department. I really like the clean on the UL, if it truely is a hiwatt style clean I should probably just look into Hiwatts (or Reeves) amps sometime. Ah the dilema continues. Thanks for the help.

Do you prefer the 6L6s all around or just for the cleans? Have you tried mixing power amp tubes in the herbert?

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

Originally posted by cancelthesound
I really prefer EL34s for my distorted tones though. So I sacrifice a little in the clean department. I really like the clean on the UL, if it truely is a hiwatt style clean I should probably just look into Hiwatts (or Reeves) amps sometime. Ah the dilema continues. Thanks for the help.

Do you prefer the 6L6s all around or just for the cleans? Have you tried mixing power amp tubes in the herbert?

I actually like them better than EL34s not just for the cleans, but the leads as well. The overall tone is just a bit more focused/cutting. I also like the mix of KT88s/EL34s as well. I find that after a certain point you start to sacrifice some definition with all EL34s.

If you're looking for a great clean to classic rock crunch, you definitely should checkout the Hiwatts or Reeves. I used to own a few Hiwatt heads (100 & DR103) that were really nice souding amps.