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this article captures how i feel about modelers

turbodogfish

Member
Messages
299
http://www.premierguitar.com/articl...-are-you-playing-for-the-songor-for-your-butt

it's not the central focus of the article, but the paragraph on using modelers and the recorded sound is really spot on IMO. playing through a modeler is like monitoring in the studio while your amp is in a sound booth - it does feel weird at first. but i've never had an easier time laying down recorded tracks or getting a soundcheck done, because the modeled tones just instantly "sit" better with much less hassle.
 

randombastage

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
3,978
Yea, if you put on a recording and play along with a modeler and just scroll through the presets listening to how it sits in a mix suddenly many of those 'notoriously terrible sounding factory presets' suddenly find places in the mix that make sense.
 

GuitarKidd

Member
Messages
3,609
Yea, if you put on a recording and play along with a modeler and just scroll through the presets listening to how it sits in a mix suddenly many of those 'notoriously terrible sounding factory presets' suddenly find places in the mix that make sense.
Yep, as I find myself, trying to record, and learning the ins and outs, I'm finding that what might not be the perfect stand alone tone, is perfect for the mix and recording.
 

T Dizz

Member
Messages
21,016
I record with my peavey vypyr all the time and almost exclusively. 1/8 inch aux to my PC, its just too easy. Listening back it sounds great:dunno
 

AminorZmajor

Member
Messages
176
Thanks for posting. It is a great article and the part about the soloed tracks of some of our favorite recordings is pure gold. Listening to some of those tracks was eye opening to say the least. :JAM
 

eriwebnerr

Member
Messages
2,724
Great article - thanks for sharing - Joe Gore is a great player too BTW - love this part of the article - so true (IMO):

But if you compare the recorded sound of that butt-blasting amp to a modeled sound, the gap narrows to near insignificance.
...
While many guitarists can distinguish amps from models while performing, only a minuscule percentage can consistently do so by listening to recordings—and we’re talking guitarists, not general listeners.
...
In any case, working with modelers can teach you to perceive volume independently from tone quality.
 

maydaynyc

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
1,238
I agree for recording or playing along with records. Where modeling falls down for me is playing in a live band situation. I've never been able to get a good sound that cuts through a rock band mix or sounds a 3D and lush as a tube amp with a few good pedals. Considering trying the Kemper, but I've been burned so many times by clever marketing and rabid forum fans, especially by Line 6.
 

tritone 6

Member
Messages
1,938
I agree with playing along with records and even recording, but playing live, is where it usually leaves you falling short.
But also practicing...many modelers sound great until you hear them over time. My experience has been that eventually that thing that can't be dialed out drives me nuts.
 

jpage

Senior Member
Messages
9,249
I agree for recording or playing along with records. Where modeling falls down for me is playing in a live band situation. I've never been able to get a good sound that cuts through a rock band mix or sounds a 3D and lush as a tube amp with a few good pedals. Considering trying the Kemper, but I've been burned so many times by clever marketing and rabid forum fans, especially by Line 6.
Can you post some live examples of your struggles? My experience with modeling over the past 11 months has been pretty much 100% the opposite of this.


 

aleclee

TGP Tech Wrangler
Staff member
Messages
13,239
Can you post some live examples of your struggles? My experience with modeling over the past 11 months has been pretty much 100% the opposite of this.
Ditto. My Amplifire and AxeFx do much better in an ensemble than most tube amps I used in the past.
 

turbodogfish

Member
Messages
299
I actually wouldn't say modelers sound better in a live situation than a tube amp that is set up perfectly, but it sounds just as good and a lot easier to get to that point. Too many variables with Amps and Mic.
 

themightyjay

Member
Messages
827
I agree for recording or playing along with records. Where modeling falls down for me is playing in a live band situation. I've never been able to get a good sound that cuts through a rock band mix or sounds a 3D and lush as a tube amp with a few good pedals. Considering trying the Kemper, but I've been burned so many times by clever marketing and rabid forum fans, especially by Line 6.
Actually, modellers make perfect sense live as well as recorded for the same reasons.

In exactly the same way as described in the article, forget completely about what your raw amp sounds like on stage with you and concentrate on the sound of the whole band coming through a good PA. it's exactly the same deal.

Obviously if you're playing in bars unmic'd it's a moot point, but for anybody going through a PA, it's the same.
 

Blix

Wannabe Shredder
Silver Supporting Member
Messages
26,393
I bet the reason many fail with modellers live is they expect it to work just plugging into FOH and hope the sound engineer will take care of your monitoring.
You need to take care of your own monitoring. And that is $$ for good stuff.
 

Tmidiman

Member
Messages
4,087
I agree with playing along with records and even recording, but playing live, is where it usually leaves you falling short.
But also practicing...many modelers sound great until you hear them over time. My experience has been that eventually that thing that can't be dialed out drives me nuts.

That's what gets me too. It's 2015 and modelers have been around for a while. We shouldn't have to dial out crap that shouldn't be present. For this to happen users have to step up and instead of religiously defending a product they need to demand better.
 

jazzfromhell

Member
Messages
4,299
You need to take care of your own monitoring. And that is $$ for good stuff.
It doesnt have to be. I use a Crate Powerblock ($100) and a H&B 2x12 with V30's ($120) for my KPA monitoring and its as good a stage sound as anything Ive ever used in 25+ years of playing and touring.
 

Blix

Wannabe Shredder
Silver Supporting Member
Messages
26,393
It doesnt have to be. I use a Crate Powerblock ($100) and a H&B 2x12 with V30's ($120) for my KPA monitoring and its as good a stage sound as anything Ive ever used in 25+ years of playing and touring.
Yeah true, I'd probably do something similar if I was using modelling. I was thinking IEM or FRFR.
 

JoeB63

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
13,841
Here's what I discovered after using the Amplifire for the past two months:

Now that I've got great patches (clean and dirty) dialed in (BTW, I'm using Redwirez IRs on all patches), if I play it (through my QSC K12) and position myself optimally relative to the speaker --- just as I've always done with tube amps --- and play it at the same volume at which I enjoy my tube amps, the quality of the tones and feel is just as good. It's "amp-in-the-room" tone, because the same room reflections are in play.

My friend came over to check it out yesterday, and he completely agreed. He was really surprised at how good it was, and told me to sell all my tube amps.

On gigs, well, if you play through the PA, it's going to sound just like your tube amp does mic'd through the PA. Actually, it will probably sound better than that, since you've optimized the tone that the audience is going to hear, rather than leaving that to the sound man. The primary difference is now you're now going to hear your tone as the audience does.

On my gig last weekend, with both guitarists using modellers (Amplifire and Kemper) for the first time, we used those Bose PA towers like they're supposed to be used (per Bose). We had them behind us, and used them as both mains and monitors (with some creative EQing). So we were hearing exactly what the audience was hearing - for the first time ever. But that's unlikely to sound or feel exactly the same as standing right in the sweet spot in front of your tube amp's cabinet, unless you own the PA and have dialed in your patches to be optimized for your exact PA and stage set-up.

3 months ago I would have not believed that I would ever be satisfied with modeled tones, either at home, or at a gig. I was very wrong. I still fire up my tube amps every few days, then compare them to what I'm getting out of the AF/K12, and a few minutes later turn the amps off and keep playing the AF.
 

RGB

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,207
I hear and feel very little difference from my tube amps when using either the Amplifire or 11R if I'm using a power amp and guitar cab(s). FRFR (CLR wedge) also works for me, but I usually prefer amps and cabs in small club situations...mic'd or direct to FOH both work as well.
 

Scott Peterson

TGP Co-Founder and Administrator
Staff member
Messages
37,638
I've been running direct to FOH for over 8 years now in a varied array of recording and live settings from my home studio to pro studios; in all sorts of bars, clubs, casino stages, outdoor venues, etc and it's been a revelation. I was openly mocked and scapegoated for years for championing direct to FOH here and on other forums but where the rubber hits the road... it's been extraordinarily satisfying. And I keep getting hired for side man gigs to this day because of my ability to quickly and efficiently have my entire package - final tones - ready to go instantly from the word go. It's been a fantastic journey and blown my mind as to what is actually possible if you understand the tools you have and learn how to best take advantage of them.
 

C-4

Member
Messages
13,838
I agree for recording or playing along with records. Where modeling falls down for me is playing in a live band situation. I've never been able to get a good sound that cuts through a rock band mix or sounds a 3D and lush as a tube amp with a few good pedals. Considering trying the Kemper, but I've been burned so many times by clever marketing and rabid forum fans, especially by Line 6.

I totally understand your statement. I've tried only a few digital amps, like Vox Valvetronix, Line 6 Pro guitar rack, Line6 Spider amps, and Marshall JMD. The Marshall far and away outdoes the others, hands down.

Last Saturday, I received my Kemper and it was game over. The Marshall can keep up with the Kemper on most Marshall sounds that the JMD can get, but the Kemper, even played through inexpensive headphones, sounds real, organic, and very satisfying. I had to wait years to get together enough money for a Kemper, but it was well worth the wait.
 




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