Timmy version question

hector

Member
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1,077
I had the original Timmy and really liked it. Then I got version 2, with the toggle on top, and everything sounded the same. Then, the new colors came out and the op amp chip has changed. I didn't like it so much (although some people do). I believe Paul C went back to the original op amp chip for some reason, and I got one of "these" pedals. While the op amp is back to the original, the tone was a little different. I see that a few other things on the board have different values.

Anyhow, my favorite Timmy is Version 2, first revision. Just like the original, but with the toggle switch on top, and standard blue color. I'd like to buy another, if I can be sure to get this one.
 

coltonius

Señor Member
Silver Supporting Member
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13,275
The different op amps are an easy swap, but I didn't know he changed component values as well.

This is like.. the third new thing I've learned in 2 days. I'm gonna start hanging out here more often!
 

PatrickE_FenderADV

Supporting Member
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26,595
Paul has said, several times, there is no circuit change between the versions. As you pointed out already, the chip is the only difference in the colors.
 

hector

Member
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1,077
Maybe. I'm a mechanical engineer, not electrical. But the two Timmys that I own have the same op amp chip, but the board looks a little different, and the sound is different at the same settings. Not trying to make a big deal out of it. Just saying that I like one better than the other. Maybe I can get a picture of the two boards side by side tonight.
 

crifasta

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
1,978
I believe Paul C. has stated that the tone pots have a different taper than they used to. This means that if you set the knobs the same on both versions, they'll sound different so you'd have to set them at different levels to achieve the same tone.

That said, I have an old original one (no external toggle) and even with the same chip as the custom color ones, it sounds different (I've had 3 of the custom ones). Maybe it's me but the original just sounds a bit ballsier.
 

jakethesnake

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Messages
1,653
I believe Paul C. has stated that the tone pots have a different taper than they used to. This means that if you set the knobs the same on both versions, they'll sound different so you'd have to set them at different levels to achieve the same tone.
Yeah, I remember reading that somewhere on here.
 

crxshdxmmy

Member
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5,850
Pretty sure there have been a few minor changes to the circuit over the years. A couple small component value changes, different pots and maybe others. I thought the V2 I played sounded a touch different than my V1 perfboard version.... but it still sounded good.
 

hector

Member
Messages
1,077
And yeah, they all sound good. Just saying that with the knobs at the same position, some sound different. But, if that's the pot taper, then it's just a matter of turning the knob a bit, I suppose.
 

joepublic

Member
Messages
46
Hmm. I too was under the impression that the only difference between one new V2 Timmy and another (different colors) was just the IC.

So I guess it's actually...different "vintages" (I know they aint vintage) have slight differences (pots?) other than the different opamps?

So if you take a brand new blue V2 Timmy and compare it to an earlier blue V2 Timmy there will be some different values of components (pots) in there?

But take a brand new current V2 Timmy in blue and compare it to a brand new V2 Timmy in surf green the only difference will be the opamp chip?

If all that is true it's probably just a matter of time before the older versions of the V2 Timmys will be more valuable and desirable than the current ones? You know..just because that's how gear works?.

For a minute there I was thinking (hoping) that there were more differences between the green and blue (for example) Timmy pedals than just the opamp because I have a surf green one. I haven't compared it to any other Timmy pedals tonally or visually internally. All I know is that it kicks!!! And that the green ones are somehow more desirable and expensive in the used market. And it doesn't seem to be just due to the color.

SO...for the OP...IF all the Timmy V2s are pretty much the same from one color to the next (only the opamp differs) all you have to do is pick up a couple or few $0.50 ICs and try swapping them out till you find one you like.

Depending on an overdrive's design, the opamp can have next to no effect or it can have more effect.
I build some Eternity clones and they use diode clipping. The original Eternity pedals have the ID scratched-off the chip. The original is still a "mystery chip". There are some fairly unanimous guesses that it's an LM1458.
I have an original E and some of my clones and a handful of different ICs. I've tried all of them in my clones including the actual E's mystery chip. There is not a lot of difference. BUT as was mentioned in this thread, I haven't tried swapping opamps in a gig setting but at home, there is not a lot of difference.
Plugging the actual mystery chip into my clones doesn't bring the rest of the way there and putting an LM833 for example into the real E doesn't make it sound much different either.

But the Timmy I don't think, is diode clipped? Wait...I must be out to lunch...the switch changes the clipping (diodes? sym/assym etc)...I haven't even been inside the thing.
I know it isn't a standard Screamer design but if it uses diode clipping, the opamp isn't gonna make an huge difference. ??? Or is it in the Timmy?

Either way, I have a surf green one, it sounds great, has a 1458 in it, I haven't A/B tested it against a different colored one, and afaik the only difference between it and a blue or white or black one is the opamp. If that is the case, grab a few (including a 1458) for like a dollar and start playing around.

Thanks for the "different pots" lesson. I thought they were all the same other than the opamp.

And a FYI/BTW... I don't use my Timmy. As awesome as it is I prefer my E clone on my main board and I use a CMATMODS SignaDrive on my small/travel board.
The surf green Timmy will be on the chopping block fairly soon.
 

crxshdxmmy

Member
Messages
5,850
The main difference is the taper of the treble control. It was changed to linear back in July. In the older pedals the audio taper pot had most of the range bunched up between 12 and 3 o'clock. The new pot rolls out the highs sooner, and slows down at the dark end - it's not as bunched up and touchy.

The dip setting in your old pedal is the same as the toggle switch down.

I wanted to change the pot taper back in 2010 when I made the toggle switch version, but I didn't want to hear people go on about the sound of perf board vs pc board so I left it the same. In the summer I decided to not worry about things I couldn't control and changed to what I feel was the better pot.

PaulC
Timmy pedals
myspace.com/paulcaudio
The only change that's really happened to the pedals is the taper of the treble control which you noticed in one. It was changed from a 50ka pot to a 50kb around July 2012. It was right after the 1st run of surf greens when I changed it in all the pedals. With the old audio pot the critical area was bunched up between about 11 o'clock and 3 o'clock with not much going on with the last couple of settings on each end. The newer taper spreads it out more making it start to roll off quicker, and slow down when it gets darker - not as touchy as before.

They've always had the same amount of gain except for the odd custom where people asked for the 500k pot used in the Tim. Those would have been used ones though because I never offered that as standard production.

Caps have changed a couple of times due to brands being discontinued, but I've tried to stick with a replacement that sounded the same.

TBH I do think about doing some big tweaks to it, but if I do it'll have some kind of graphic change to make it easy to spot.

PaulC
timmy pedals
I had all the changes posted a year ago when I 1st came out with these. I guess I should list them again. Don't want to be standing around naked...

The main things were mechanical. I moved the footswitch/dc jack and put a toggle on the outside instead of the dips on the inside.

changes to the circuit were an added cap to the output amp rolling off the hi end at -3dB@14khz. That's way up there, and even less of an effect when the whole stage is only a +6dB gain stage. This was done since there was no need for the stage to be flat all the way up, and to help cut down on any radios. The effect was a tiny bit smoother on the top end. Most people have not been able to hear this, and in blind tests more people didn't hear it than did.

A change was made to the cap that sets the low end responce of the bass control. this was done to get it closer to the Tim since everybody always said the tim sounded "better" and "fuller". Even with the boost mode off there was still an effect from that circuit that caused the Tim to be about +.5dB@80hz more than the Timmy. Very tiny stuff, but I changed the value of the low end cap to make the Timmy flatter like the Tim. The funny thing is once you turn the bass knob up just one setting this effect is swamped out. Again - more people didn't hear it as did.

I had this all spelled out last spring when i made the changes. Not trying to hide anything. just trying to make things a little better.

Again - I've asked the op to call me about this.

PaulC
Tim/timmy pedals
myspace.com/paulcaudio
:wave

And this, too... for good measure:

I recently purchased a 2nd Timmy pedal, this time for my son. I was curious if it sounded the same as my 2 year old Timmy. To my surprise there was a very significant difference. At the same settings, everything at 12 o'clock, switch in middle position, the newer Timmy had much less treble and volume. I adjusted the settings until I found the closest match. I left the older Timmy at 12 o'clock and for the new pedal I had to adjust the treble setting to about 9 o'clock (increases treble going counterclockwise) but also found that the new Timmy had more mids. Actually, at this setting the newer Timmy sounded richer than the old. I am curious as to the circuit changes and reasons why, if anyone has input. Either way, we both still love these pedals! Here are pictures first of the 2 year old Timmy and then the new (2012) Timmy:




The main thing you're hearing is the treble control. I changed that to a linear taper instead of the audio back around July. 0-10 is the same, but it spreads the range out better keeping the critical area from being bunched up between 12 to 3 o'clock.

There's a slight change on the output amp to load it down less helping it to have a tiny bit more headroom to help with a weak battery.

None of this really makes it sound different - most of it is just a different spot on the treble control. I don't call it "v3" or anything because I don't want people to think it's really different so they should buy it again.

PaulC
Timmy pedals
myspace.com/paulcaudio
 
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hector

Member
Messages
1,077
Here's my two Timmys.
The left is a newer V2 blue one.
The right is a purple V2.
(sorry for the bad phone photo)

The left one has something extra to the left of the JRC chip.

Again, not over analyzing. I like these pedals.
Just trying to figure out why they sound a little different.

 
Messages
1,840
You should read the quote from Paul that was posted above (3rd one). In it, he explains the purpose of the extra cap that you see in the photo.
 

PaulC

Member
Messages
1,896
Here's my two Timmys.
The left is a newer V2 blue one.
The right is a purple V2.
(sorry for the bad phone photo)

The left one has something extra to the left of the JRC chip.

Again, not over analyzing. I like these pedals.
Just trying to figure out why they sound a little different.


Well - there's even a newer version... For about the past year I changed the volume pot value and soldered a resistor on it to smooth it's taper. In the old style unity gain was about 2 o'clock with all the volume boost going on in the small area between 2 and 5 o'clock. That always bugged me, but using a linear pot was worse - that would put unity at around 9 o'clock making it a useless control imho. With the gain at zero the pedal puts out 12dB, so changing the volume to 25ka and adding an 18k resistor from input to output fixed this for me. I calculated the 18k value to put the control -12dB at 12 o'clock making it unity at that setting. Like the treble pot change this was about smoothing the taper and not about changing the sound. It doesn't sound different - the min and max settings are the same. Just the settings in the middle are tweaked to not be so touchy.

About two pcb batches ago I added this resistor to the board because it was a pain to solder them on to the pot. I didn't call this a new version because I don't want people to think it sounds different enough to get them to buy it again. The sounds are all there - just at a little different knob setting. These are all pretty much mechanical tweaks and not tone tweaks

Another change that ALWAYS happens is the resistor that feeds the LED. Those blue leds are all over the map when it comes to brightness, so in every pedal I have to adjust the value. I have a jig made with a dozen or so resistors in it. I plug in an LED and move it around to find the value that's not to bright or to dark. Then I put that value on the pcb with that led. This does not effect the tone - just the brightness of the led.

PaulC
Timmy pedals
 
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hector

Member
Messages
1,077
Thanks so much for the explanation, Paul. I've had a Timmy pedal on each of my boards for a few years now. I do turn the tone knob down on the blue version to get the sound I like. So, yeah, it all makes sense now. I've gone through many pedals over the last couple of years (a TGP thing I suppose), but the Timmy has always remained with me.
 




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