Tom Abraham (FOH Engineer) on Modeling

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by ColdFrixion, Apr 12, 2019.

  1. vintagelove

    vintagelove Member

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    Slew rate is a better word than punch, however I thought punch was sufficient in the context.
     
  2. Watt McCo

    Watt McCo Supporting Member

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    A thread is pretty close to rock bottom when the wannabe philosophy majors begin bickering over the presence/absence of logical flaws.
     
  3. Lord N

    Lord N Member

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    We should find a YouTube video of an incoherent person talking about appeal to authority and then speculate what he could mean.
     
  4. vintagelove

    vintagelove Member

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    How about SS amps?

    I have some really nice tube amps, 64 super reverb, vintage Marshall, an incredible 40w octal amp, etc.

    I regularly use a polytone, a very popular SS amp. There’s Hendrickson, and a host of others in that same category.
     
  5. vintagelove

    vintagelove Member

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    I appreciate your comment, but I’d like a source stating digital reproduction can have a larger dynamic range than the original analog signal.
     
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  6. dazco

    dazco Member

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    The guy is describing exactly what has happened to me many times.....with BOTH TUBES AND MODELING ! He;s wrong IMO. What he is talking about is all about the tone's frequency curve, sppectrum, whatever u wanna call it. Some cannot cut in a mix and you can try forever without success. I have had that happen with tube amps a number of time that i felt were my holy grail when i bought them and brought them home only to go to a gig and not be able to hear myself no matter how loud i turned it u unless i drowned everyone else out. And even then all that would come thru was lousy tone. What he's describing is to a T what happens with ANY type of amp if it;s not a good one. Many amps are not tested rigorously in live situations before the go to the production line. Others are. The wise builder does that. Many big companies design for showroom tone. Whether that on purpose of just bad R&D i dunno, but i have had plenty of amps including tube amp that are like that. On a side note I also believe that when that DOES happen with a modeler it's possibly the fact that a lot of people use FR speaker systems. IMO great guitar tone that cuts right is much more likely using a real guitar speaker/cab. Many modelers don't design thier rigs to be used like that and IMO that could be the biggest remaining flaw that modelers still have not overcome. I use modeling combos with real speakers and i never have those issues. I've had other issues, mostly that can be overcome with the right settings but so far no problem with cutting thru a mix right.
     
  7. hippietim

    hippietim Silver Supporting Member

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    SS amps are not part of what this thread is all about.
     
  8. FPFL

    FPFL Member

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    The excited talk about slew rate vs punch makes me think I am at meteorological school after party.
     
  9. Papanate

    Papanate Gold Supporting Member

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    Slew Rates between a tube amp and a digital device? That doesn’t make much sense in the context
    Of a mix.
     
  10. Gasp100

    Gasp100 Silver Supporting Member

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    I think many tube rigs (the cab is just as important as the amp itself) have more girth than modeling rigs.
     
  11. Gasp100

    Gasp100 Silver Supporting Member

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    Does it really?
    He said it was the last encore song in an entire show. So what's that, 4 minutes to come to this complete and utter revelation? Give me a break...
    Clearly modeling solutions can cut it on even the biggest stages in the world.
    What I'm concerned about is what I want to hear and feel.
    OP, you yourself have posted many clips of your AXE3 rig and seem completely satisfied. Are you really going to let one obviously biased podcast change your mind or offer doubt?
     
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  12. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    :oops:
    Er, ok. Is @cliffc8488 not good enough for you?

    At least try to search it yourself a bit? First Google result when you search "digital analog dynamic range":
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_analog_and_digital_recording#Dynamic_range
    "The dynamic range of digital audio systems can exceed that of analog audio systems."

    Try to understand what's been said. Or like @phil_m mentioned, look at analog & digital products in the market and their dynamic ranges and compare.
     
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  13. djd100

    djd100 Member

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    Geez, this thread has hit new lows, even for TGP!

    Hint, "Dynamic Range" is not the issue, try again folks...
     
  14. vintagelove

    vintagelove Member

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    You are misunderstanding my position.

    I’m not talking about recording mediums, of course they have better dynamic range than a tape machine. Btw, I’m quite familiar with high end AD/DA converters. The last decade + I’ve run RADAR converters ($10k+, widely considered some of the finest available) and Apogee converters.
     
  15. hippietim

    hippietim Silver Supporting Member

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    And if that were relevant to a discussion of how a modeling tone that was supposedly identical to an amp tone into a Palmer DI didn’t sit in the mix, you’d be the coolest kid in the thread.
     
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  16. ColdFrixion

    ColdFrixion Member

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    In my opinion, yes.

    We're not talking about someone who has little to no familiarity with modeling gear. As far back as 2005, he worked FOH on an international tour for a major act whose entire guitar and bass section consisted of nothing but modelers. In fact, he oversaw the use of VSTi's using the Receptor for the keyboard section during that tour, so I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.

    He never said they couldn't. In fact, he said they work fine when everyone is on the same page from a modeling perspective. He alleged it's when they're mixed with real amps that it can be an issue. I don't assume that's true, however having heard his work and given his expertise, I'm not inclined to simply dismiss his experience out of hand because it challenges my preconceptions.

    Even if his claim were proven true, it wouldn't change how I feel about, or my use of, modeling gear.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019 at 6:54 AM
  17. jota

    jota Member

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    Yes, politics. It's what this conversation needed...
    :D

    This kind of threads is way I gear page: to read stupid stuff.
     
  18. poison7512

    poison7512 Member

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    I think youre forgetting about the entire other half of what makes sound. Volume. He's talking about compression. Tube amps punch.
     
  19. ballynally

    ballynally Member

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    may i offer my view?
    Tube amps are not linear.They display a dynamic unpredictable frequency range in which certain notes seems to fly while others sit still, even without the influence of the cab.This dynamism might be put back into a certain modeled amp with software/IR but is it the same?
    Before you can mention 'fairy dust', it seems Tom's experiences are alike.
    His explanation is likely not accurate and it's not that certain frequencies are missing but more the way tube amps dynamically put out the signal in an unpredictable way, making the signal more alive as opposed to a modeled amp which is by definition more linear.
     
  20. ballynally

    ballynally Member

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    im not sure if the harmonics argument flies (second/third etc) as the modeled amp will have the same.
     

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