Torpedo CAB vs Amplifire as IR Solution

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by MoPho, May 26, 2015.

  1. MoPho

    MoPho International Man of Leisure Silver Supporting Member

    Messages:
    5,010
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2007
    Location:
    DFWTX
    i love my 11r, but want to experiment with using IRs for cab modeling. Must be MIDI addressable since I use a GCP to control everything. Since these boxes are in the same general price point, what would you folks suggest for one of these sitting in a rack?
     
  2. CharlieFoxtrot

    CharlieFoxtrot Member

    Messages:
    231
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    I own both, and although the Amplifire can and does do the IR loading thing that's really not it's purpose. If you want to compare the Amplifire against the 11r as a modeling unit with the added benefit of being able to try out some IRs then go that route. If you are just interested in the IR portion then go with the Torpedo CAB as that is what it was built to do. It's much easier to audition IR's with the Torpedo CAB and it can store a lot more than the Amplifire as well as give you the option of adjusting things to your taste with it's built in cabs and power amp modeling. The Amplifire does give you more routing options, has power amp sims, and the option to go stereo if you choose, but not using the Amplifire as an amp modeler just seems like a waste of 80% of it's ability.
     
  3. Jay Mitchell

    Jay Mitchell Member

    Messages:
    4,826
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2007
    Given the ease of uploading IRs, the Amplifire can indeed serve that purpose quite effectively.

    So was the Amplifire as one part of its mission. It is not clear to me why you would think otherwise. The fact that it has so many additional features does not mean that you have to use them all.

    It's difficult to imagine anything easier to use for auditioning IRs than the Amplifire. You use the editor to upload them - it does the heavy lifting of SR conversion and shortening/lengthening if you don't want to - and select them one at a time to audition. How is the Torpedo any easier?

    32 users IRs is more than you'll ever need to have on hand at any one time. If you're trying to make use of more than a very few IRs, odds are you're not getting the full benefit from any of them.

    The Amplifire does power amp modeling, too.

    In any given scenario, you will be "wasting" at least that much of the capability of any multieffects device. The important thing is not how much you aren't using, it's how well you're using the portion that suits your purposes.
     
    jimfist likes this.
  4. CharlieFoxtrot

    CharlieFoxtrot Member

    Messages:
    231
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    I mentioned that the Amplifire has poweramp sims in my last statement as well as a lot more flexible routing options. With the Torpedo Remote software you can audition any IR with the CAB without physically loading it on the device and taking up a memory slot, this option is currently not available with the Amplifire. Several of the Two-Notes built in (or third party) speaker cabs are very good and they are adjustable to taste, which is another option that the Amplifire does not have.

    As an all in one solution I prefer the Amplifire, but the Two-Notes CAB is great at what it does.
     
  5. nicolasrivera

    nicolasrivera Silver Supporting Member

    Messages:
    5,886
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2010
    Location:
    Honduras
    Torpedo CAB has a more user friendly and easier IR lkoading besides is has a lot more free slots for your IR library and auditioning them is a breez.

    Torpedo CAB will absolutly make your 11R sound bette and feel more like a real amp.

    Find it use, it goes for a lot less then the new asking price.
     
  6. Jay Mitchell

    Jay Mitchell Member

    Messages:
    4,826
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2007
    As far as I can tell, you still must use the device to audition it, however.

    It is incredibly difficult for me to see how the temporary use of one of 32 user cab positions to audition an IR constitutes a significant issue. What am I missing here?

    Point well taken. If you must have their factory cabs, obviously there are no options other than their products.

    Beg to differ. You can equalize and/or add compression or distortion via the use of other blocks in the Amplifire. The fact that those functions show up in different locations on the editor screen in no way detracts from their utility in adjusting cabs to taste.

    I take no issue with that, but it has not been established here that the Amplifire is not equally good at the same tasks. If it is not, then it must have disadvantages that have yet to be disclosed.
     
  7. nicolasrivera

    nicolasrivera Silver Supporting Member

    Messages:
    5,886
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2010
    Location:
    Honduras
    So far no one has made a side by side comparison with both units. Any ways, if you take everything away of what the TCAB does but its propiatary IR interface, that along, IMO, is well worth the price. Two Notes has done an amazing job upgrading it to a point i still find the sounds more real and natural then all of the IR librarys i have bought over the years, many months have pass since i last used a 3rd party IR.
     
  8. CharlieFoxtrot

    CharlieFoxtrot Member

    Messages:
    231
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    With the Two-Notes Remote software connected to the CAB there is a mode that will let you select any folder on your computer that holds IR files. All of those files are now available to select to audition with the power amp sims and eq settings using the CAB, but without actually loading the IR into the CAB's permanent flash memory. So for example if I have something like the RedWirez library which has about a gazillion different options with mics and mic placement distances, I can load up the folder that contains the speaker and the mic I am interested in and now all of the IRs in that folder are available for me to audition. When I get it narrowed down to the one or two I like the most I then load that to a permanent memory slot on the CAB. At present, doing something similar with the Amplifire isn't possible, but I would certainly like it to be.

    For me personally, I bought the Amplifire because I consider it an upgrade to the CAB in many ways, most of which is the amp modeling. It's a better all in one solution right on the pedal board without having to use an external tube pre-amp like I was doing with the CAB. If the OP is going to choose the Amplifire, I personally think he should give the AF amp models a fair shake along with the IR capabilities.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2015
    aruark1 likes this.
  9. dmock66

    dmock66 Member

    Messages:
    706
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    I went from an 11R/TCAB to the AmpliFIRE. FOR ME - it has been an awesome move.

    In my opinion - the amp modeling on the AmpliFIRE is a step up from the 11R. Not a huge step, but a step. The fact that the IRs are internal to the AmpliFIRE, as opposed to having to get all the levels balanced between the 11R/TCAB, makes it a better solution for me. Also, the AmpliFIRE fits on my board. The 11R required a rack bag - so I've reduced the logistics of my rig by making the change.

    To be clear - I really liked the 11R/TCAB. However, after having the AmpliFIRE for since February I've only turned on the 11R a couple times... and am not ready to move it on.

    That is my experience only - YMMV.
     
  10. BCy2k

    BCy2k Member

    Messages:
    1,558
    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2008
    Location:
    Colorado
    I recently sold my T-CAB, but I used mine with great success for the past couple years. I'd say the user IR capabilities between the AmpliFire and the T-CAB are roughly equivalent. I'd give the AmpliFire a slight advantage when it comes to user IRs. They each use slightly different methods to get their results, but the AmpliFire offers more ways to manipulate & shape user IRs than the last version of the T-CAB I used, YMMV. The results from each device are still very satisfying IMHO. It's just that in the AmpliFire you have a lot of EQ types & positions available to shape & fine tune your sound and IR. Versus one graphic eq that was available on the last version of the T-CAB I used.

    TBH, I still think the native Two Notes IRs are superb and far more flexible than user IRs in either device. IMHO, this is where the T-CAB shines & sets itself apart. Both units are potent & capable IR hosts. I wouldn't get too worked up over the fact that the T-CAB can hold 512 user IRs, compared to the AmpliFire's 32. You can only use one IR at a time with either unit, and if you're auditioning IR's, you're likely going to be connected to your computer anyway. So, to me the number of IRs a device can store isn't all that critical. 32 is plenty, 512, may be overwhelming to some.

    Also, the T-CAB IRs are mono, the AmpliFire IRs can be mono or stereo. Which may or may not be relevant in your particular situation.
     
  11. djd100

    djd100 Member

    Messages:
    2,785
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2006
    The Two Notes Torpedo's real-time adjustable cab/speaker/mic sims are unique with regards to hardware solutions in that you can adjust the mic positioning in real-time, which is a huge time saver in a pro environment where time equals money. Just grab your virtual mic and position it in front or in back of your virtual cab manually instead of individually loading lots of IR files to audition while searching for the one you need (virtual mic positioning can be controlled via front panel, MIDI, or software editor). Note that additional Two Notes cab sims are being developed by major European Studios so their library of real-time adjustable cab sims is growing. Also of note is that Two Notes includes free IR Mixing and Capture Software as well.

    As others have noted the Torpedo can use/audition cab sims via USB, so for example it's easy to have the entire Redwirez library online for use or audtion additional Two Notes cab sims via computer.

    The Torpedo's tube power amp sims and EQ are very good and all of the Torpedo's params are MIDI controllable. I don't know how the Torpedo's tube amp sims compare to Amplifire's though I do know that they compare quite well to real tube power amps. The Two Notes tube power amp sims are simply excellent (we build our own tube gear and I've used quality separates since the 80's, so I'm quite familiar with all aspects of tube gear and have A/B tested the Two Notes tube power amp sims vs real tube power amps in a pro-studio environment).
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2015
  12. Jay Mitchell

    Jay Mitchell Member

    Messages:
    4,826
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2007
    Just as it's impossible to accurately "unbake" the speaker from a Kemper profile that was done on an amp and speaker, there is no physical possibility of accurately duplicating the effect of moving a virtual mic. Whatever is being done is a "programmer's impression" of the effect of different mic placements as opposed to a credible replica of physical reality. The actual effect due to moving a mic to different positions in front of a cab varies widely, depending on the cab, the mic, the distance from the mic to the speaker(s), distance from speaker to floor, and a host of other variables. Any attempt at simulation will be nothing more than a set of equalization parameters that shift with the virtual "position" of the mic.

    If the different EQ options provided by this virtual mic relocation will work, there are lots of other equally quick ways to get there.

    Without having played with one of these, I can only speculate about how the attempt at simulation is accomplished. I can say definitively, however, that it is not physically possible to do an accurate software/firmware simulation of the effect of repositioning/aiming a microphone in front of a cab.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2015
  13. BCy2k

    BCy2k Member

    Messages:
    1,558
    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2008
    Location:
    Colorado
    When I spent time experimenting with the native Two Notes IRs, it was remarkable how much could be done with the distance & position parameters before you got to the power amp sims, or the eq. I can't speak to the science & technology behind it, but while I used my T-CAB, 3rd party IRs were usually a let down for me. It was easier, quicker, and just plain better sounding what I could get using the native IRs compared to all of the others tried. Which were the 'usual suspects' frequently discussed here & elsewhere.

    Comparing the user IR capabilities between the AF & T-CAB is as close as you can get to doing something that's apples to apples IMHO. Once you get past that they're two fairly different (but great) boxes altogether, IMHO.
     
  14. Jay Mitchell

    Jay Mitchell Member

    Messages:
    4,826
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2007
    Once again, we're talking about two different subjects here. One regards the utility of the feature. I take no issue with its usefulness. If you use it and like the results, it clears that bar.

    The other issue is whether it actually models what is claimed for it. I do take issue with that, based on my intimate familiarity - both a formal education and a multi-decade career in the field - with the acoustics involved.

    Unless you directly compare the modeled mic positions with physical positions of the same mic/cab combination, you will be unable to speak to the accuracy of the process from your experience. Labeling equalization as something else does not change what's actually being done.
     
  15. djd100

    djd100 Member

    Messages:
    2,785
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2006
    I'm fairly certain that Two Notes uses multiple IR's as the .tsr cab files are over 1.2M in size Jay, and they're the only hardware based platform with a intuitive GUI to manage these IR's in a realistic real-world manner that I know of (i.e. like physically micing a cab). A .tsr file contains all the mic captures in all the various locations for a single cab. What if anything they do DSP-wise in addition to this I don't know (aside from speaker overload and phase stuff on their higher end models, in addition to their seperate tube power amp sims and 5 Band EQ).

    With multiple IR's controlled by a good UI it's certainly possible to duplicate within some degree of resolution the practice of physically mic'ing a cab (less resolution obviously, but a reasonable ability to move the mics in the X/Y axis within the cab's environment). In any case the user experience parallels physically mic'ing a cab like no other hardware, so it's much faster and intuitive to use vs auditioning multiple mic/position IR's say in the Axe FX or Amplifire.

    Is it exact, no, and is it as detailed as the Rewirez library with 0.5" increments, likely not, though I find it the best way to use IR's personally after mic'ing the real thing in pro environments since the 70's (IMHO etc).

    Note that regarding the Torpedo hardware you only get one cab/speaker/mic sim or two depending on model, though the WOS plugin will do as many cabs as you have the hardware resources for. For me this works as I'm old school, though for others that feel the absolute need to blend multiple close mics etc it'll likely be limiting. To that end it'll work with standard IR's as well (with a length of around 18ms I believe?), and comes with IR Mixing and Capture software in addition to it's software editor.

    You should try the Two Notes WOS plugin if you haven't...


     
    Last edited: May 26, 2015
    nicolasrivera likes this.
  16. Qifei

    Qifei Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2011
    Location:
    Shanghai,China
  17. nicolasrivera

    nicolasrivera Silver Supporting Member

    Messages:
    5,886
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2010
    Location:
    Honduras

    Hardly will you make Jay understand that Two Notes IRs sound better then static IRs. IMO ofcourse.

    I'm old school all the way too!
     
  18. MoPho

    MoPho International Man of Leisure Silver Supporting Member

    Messages:
    5,010
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2007
    Location:
    DFWTX
    nicolasrivera likes this.
  19. Jay Mitchell

    Jay Mitchell Member

    Messages:
    4,826
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2007
    That much is certain. From the manual: "Starting with a measure of a real cabinet + microphone setup, the TORPEDO TORPEDO C.A.B. can accurately reproduce the system as it was measured, as well as the microphone’s position in space, by using IR synthesis."

    This is exactly what I've been talking about. With multiple IRs, you can only get the sound of mic positions in which you actually acquired an IR. What happens in between those positions, wihout actual IRs taken there, can never be known definitively. It is impossible to interpolate between IRs taken at different mic positions to an intermediate one and get a match to what you would have gotten if you actually placed the mic there. That is not opinion. Whatever is being done to derive "interpolated" IRs - those that would lie between mic positions at which actual IRs exist - cannot possibly produce an accurate result. There is no mathematical interpolation method that can correctly predict what would have occurred at intermediate points.

    The fact that sonic differences can be produced via simple, intuitive means does not establish that those sonic differences are a good representation of physical reality. I stress again that I take no issue with the utility of the Torpedo. Also worthy of note to a certain unnamed participant here is the fact that the neither the Torpedo CAB nor Live model speaker nonlinearities. They both use the "static" IRs you seem to believe are inferior. Again, from the manual: "The impulse response (IR) of a system describes its behavior under the form of a very detailed filter. The convolution technique uses IRs to simulate the behavior of particular systems, such as reverbs, speakers, EQ... It is the most accurate way to simulate sound signatures that are linear (i.e. without distortion) and time-invariant (i.e. without modulation, compression, hysteresis...). It is particularly well suited for speaker miking simulation.
     
  20. BCy2k

    BCy2k Member

    Messages:
    1,558
    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2008
    Location:
    Colorado
    I appreciate you're experience & skepticism regarding the accuracy of what is happening sonically in the T-CAB native IRs. I wouldn't describe what I was hearing from my T-CAB as mere, or typical eq when sweeping through it's native IR positioning parameters. I concede it was a form of filtering, but I'm inclined to think of it as something different than 'bread & butter' eq. It behaved more like a typical XY vector synth, as though a sizable collection of IRs were on hand to replicate, and possibly synthesize (as they described it) the characteristics of any given spot, in 2d. Based on how the native IRs sounded, they did behave as though it was loading a different IR for virtually every positional permutation. It reminded me of key switching as it might be used in soft samplers, except somehow loading in an IR for any given position. Obviously, I have no clue as to how they achieve what their stuff does over at Two Notes, but this was the impression I (and others evidently) was left with when using it. It was like their IRs were made up of mega XY grids of many IRs from many positions. How many? Don't know, but it sure seemed like a lot. Perhaps it is possible they did this using a method you haven't thought of?

    I can't honestly say weather the accuracy of whatever method was used matters to me all that much if it still happens to sounds good. IMHO Two Notes got that stuff right in their IRs, says the guy who no longer owns one :rotflmao.
     

Share This Page