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Trey Anastasio tone - help me get it - pedal order game...

weezy

Member
Messages
420
I am aware of where pedals should be in the line, but I'm looking to attain a Trey-Anastasio-like tone for the Phish Tribute project we have going... I know he stacks a TS-9 and an 808 before the Ross Compressor, but when I do it - it doesn't really work out... too noisy, no attack, not enough gain.

Here's what I have:

TU-2
WAH
TS-9
808
Keeley Compressor (2 knob)
DM-3 delay
DD-5 delay
Leslie Sim.
Poblano Picoso boost
MXR Micro Amp
Fulldrive 2 MOSFET

Thanks!
 

dividedsky

Member
Messages
4,275
Sounds very good in those clips. I know Trey puts the drive before compression but I've never cared for that at all.

I'd put it like this: tuner, wah, comp, leslie sim, drive pedals/boost pedals (either order depending on personal preference), delays.
 

william314

Member
Messages
22
What I've found with OD's before a compressor, TS's and the Keeley in particular, is that you have two approaches that work well:
1. Setting the output level of the OD very low so as to not "clog up" the compressor. Start with the output level at 0 and then slowly bring it up until you loose your attack, and then back off slightly.
2. Setting the output level of the OD very high, so as to "push through" the compressor. This is something that works with Ross/DynaComp-based compressors like the Keeley. This results in less attack but tons of sustain.

For both of these approaches the sustain knob has to be set fairly sow. I set the keeley around 9 o'clock.

And noise is obviously going to be a pretty big issue, but there's no way around it, you just have to make sure that your volume pedal is after the compressor and use it to gate your signal when you aren't playing.

I'd imagine trey uses both of these approaches, one for his rhythm OD (a la Chalkdust) and another as the fusiony sustain OD (a la Squirming Coil)

Something else to note is that this set up will not allow your OD sound to be louder than you're clean sound, infact it might sound a bit quiter. Phish have their sound man bring up Trey during solos which is why during jam's he's often about as loud as the rest of the band put together. You could simulate this with the micro amp at the end of the chain, but the effectiveness of this is gonna depend on how much headroom your amp has left.
 

iaresee

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
3,837
Wow. That sustain knob is way lower than I would have guessed. Thanks for that picture!
 

bradsarno

Member
Messages
70
I don't know if I agree with all that was stated 2 posts above. I always found that Trey's use of the comp actually made it so the soundman really didn't have to do much for Trey's level. The comp kind of naturally held it nice and right in the mix on its own while Trey controls most everything.

I don't think noise is a big issue either, as long as the Ross sustain knob isn't set too high and you use humbuckers. I recall back in the 90's that the sustain knob would be up around 10 o'clock with lots of squash, but now it's down around 8 o'clock and he has much more picking control over the dynamic level.

Also what I've always noticed is that one of the main roles of the comp AFTER the TS pedals is that Trey has total control over how much dirt is happening, and the comp just keeps it all at a consistent volume. From clean single notes to chords to super dirty, it all sticks right up there in the mix clear and full. The comp after the TS dirt is critical, or else you can't use your picking dynamics to control dirt the way he does. What's very key is that Trey uses his guitar volume knob a LOT to control how much dirt he's getting from the TS's. He's all over that volume knob, and you don't hear it so much as volume change when the TS's are on, you hear it more as a clean/dirty control. At least that's what I observe. He seems to have an infinitely fine range of control from super clean to super full on driving, and all with his volume knob and two tubescreamers.

Trey has a great stage volume, loud but pleasant, and the Languedoc is so reactive to the speakers it's just amazing. He gets real nice feedback at reasonable levels. The way he can get all that vocal and vowel-like expression out of that rig is unlike anything I've heard. He talks with that guitar. It's a total "feel" kind of setup.

B
 

sralquist

Member
Messages
484
I don't know if I agree with all that was stated 2 posts above. I always found that Trey's use of the comp actually made it so the soundman really didn't have to do much for Trey's level. The comp kind of naturally held it nice and right in the mix on its own while Trey controls most everything.

I don't think noise is a big issue either, as long as the Ross sustain knob isn't set too high and you use humbuckers. I recall back in the 90's that the sustain knob would be up around 10 o'clock with lots of squash, but now it's down around 8 o'clock and he has much more picking control over the dynamic level.

Also what I've always noticed is that one of the main roles of the comp AFTER the TS pedals is that Trey has total control over how much dirt is happening, and the comp just keeps it all at a consistent volume. From clean single notes to chords to super dirty, it all sticks right up there in the mix clear and full. The comp after the TS dirt is critical, or else you can't use your picking dynamics to control dirt the way he does. What's very key is that Trey uses his guitar volume knob a LOT to control how much dirt he's getting from the TS's. He's all over that volume knob, and you don't hear it so much as volume change when the TS's are on, you hear it more as a clean/dirty control. At least that's what I observe. He seems to have an infinitely fine range of control from super clean to super full on driving, and all with his volume knob and two tubescreamers.

Trey has a great stage volume, loud but pleasant, and the Languedoc is so reactive to the speakers it's just amazing. He gets real nice feedback at reasonable levels. The way he can get all that vocal and vowel-like expression out of that rig is unlike anything I've heard. He talks with that guitar. It's a total "feel" kind of setup.

B
cool stuff ... you are absolutely right, the two TS's allow you to turn your guitar volume way down and get this almost clean sound even though both OD's are on (those analogman "silver" TS9's are really awesome, I have a Fulltone OCD going into a "Silver" TS9 into a analogman CompRosser) And then as you said you can control the exact amount of dirt with guitar volume and picking dynamics, without much lose from low pick up levels.. it is a very nice trick.
hey Brad, do you know where the Whammy is currently in the pedal order? ... has that whammy II been modded??
Gracias!
Sean
 

bradsarno

Member
Messages
70
I don't know where it falls in the chain, but I'd guess that it's early, before any overdrive so that the Whammy pedal can track the signal cleanly. The cabling for the Whammy did not directly feed his wah from what I could see, but instead seemed to find its way back to the router, maybe. So maybe he could use his larger pedalboard to turn it on or off so it's not always in the path. Not sure.

He pointed out that he's only (currently) using the Whammy pedal for one thing, and that's a pitch drop when he steps on it. Since his guitar doesn't have a whammy bar, this lets him get those drops and returns to pitch. When he showed it to me, he was doing real tasteful and subtle low note drops and returns. They sounded like mild pitch drops, maybe whole steps and not radical dive bombs. But maybe that was due to only stepping on the pedal a little bit. I don't own or know that Whammy pedal that well.

Brad
 

sralquist

Member
Messages
484
thanks Brad,
i'm sure your right about having it on some kind of a separate loop , i have my whammy II with a little keeley loop pedal on my board to get it out of the way so that it does not effect my sound when I don't want it to (the whammy II does not have a true bypass and that's why i was wondering about a possible mod).
That subtle octave down that Trey was showing you is i'm pretty sure the "2nd" setting, and then as you said he only pushes the pedal down as far as he wants octave change , sometimes very subtly. But i still wonder how much that Whammy is left on when he is not even messing with the pedal for octave changes ?? .. the whammy II has a very distinct tone, it is kind of hollow sounding with really organic tone..
hey Brad, I have all the shows since the Fox, Is Trey using your "SMS Classic" pre amp, at the rest of the shows like Deer Creek and Alpine? When i was listening the other day to Deer Creek i thought that i could hear him switching back and forth between the Boogie set up and the new set up using the SMS?
thanks!
 

bradsarno

Member
Messages
70
I got he impression that he could just go over and step on the Whammy and it was ready to do its thing, as if it's always on. Not sure.

I know that he used the SMS Classic 100% of the time at the Fox, and some of the time in Pittsburgh. I'm really not sure how much he used it at Deer Creek and Alpine. His tech wasn't sure either. I thought I heard it kick in on some of the audio from those later shows, but I really have no confirmation at all on that.

Brad
 

sralquist

Member
Messages
484
I got he impression that he could just go over and step on the Whammy and it was ready to do its thing, as if it's always on. Not sure.

I know that he used the SMS Classic 100% of the time at the Fox, and some of the time in Pittsburgh. I'm really not sure how much he used it at Deer Creek and Alpine. His tech wasn't sure either. I thought I heard it kick in on some of the audio from those later shows, but I really have no confirmation at all on that.

Brad
... I definitely heard it being used at Deer Creek, I'm gonna listen to some of Alpine today. It's pretty easy to hear when Trey is using it. To my ears it has a tighter more defined sharper kind of sound.. more articulate.. it's like a sharper blade for Trey to slice and dice with.. on the other hand straight in the boogie has a wider more open kind of sound but it's definitely not as dynamic as the SMS and therefor less articulate.
Hey Brad ... could you make a pedal version of the SMS Classic? ;)
 

sralquist

Member
Messages
484
June 2009 TS and Ross settings:


As they say a picture is worth a 1000 words .. thanks Brad!
The levels on the TS9's really do tell a story .. they are dialed in to do exactly what we are talking about .. having control over the dirt with the guitar volume knob without loosing the clarity and harmonic levels.
IMO the trick is having the drive on the first TS9 in the line (the one on the left in photo) really Hot like Trey does. I use an OCD to really push the second TS9 , i would rather have another analogman "silver" (IMO the best OD) , but the OCD works because it has a ton of high end drive... and that is what Trey is accomplishing by putting the drive on the first TS9 all the way up.. and that's what gives him the ability to control the dirt when both TS9's are on without loosing those highs when he turns the guitar down. The natural sharp harmonics of the Doc and those Duncan 59' PAF Humbuckers have something to do with it as well .. it's all about amplifying those harmonics and getting that clean signal thru the pedals .. and again IMO that is why Analogmans "Silver" TS9 are the best, but you have to know how to use them as Trey does.
It turns out that it may not be as many have thought , which is to turn the second TS9 on for more dirt. In fact it could be the opposite at times .. which is turn the second TS9 on when you want cleaner by turning the guitar volume knob way down and i mean way down. So having them both on allows Trey to get less dirt than when he just has one on. hhmm .. go figure.. :munch
 

bradsarno

Member
Messages
70
...
Hey Brad ... could you make a pedal version of the SMS Classic? ;)

I really can't. First off, it's a high gain device who's output is very hot line level ready to drive a power amp. Also the nature of this kind of high gain, high impedance circuit needs to have it's 300v power supply safely away from the audio circuit for low noise. This makes it physically large.


Brad
 

sralquist

Member
Messages
484
Halley's Comet at the Fox is unbelievable!!! Trey's solo starting at 5:42 sounds awesome and really starts to sound sick around 6:48 ... and continues on and again around 8:30 mind boggling and absolutely ridiculous around 10:20!!.. Wow! "The SMS Classic" sounds phenomenal!
 

tmd187

ParaMagician
Messages
262
I saw a Major change in Trey's setup with the 3.0 Tour, it appears that he is no longer relying on his Deluxe 65' and running his old Mesa Boogie Mark III heads onstage, I was 2nd row for the Gorge and being an FX junky, I was looking everywhere. His tone was more 'raw' and 'stingy' if that makes sense. If this helps, which it's widely known, Mike Pierra a.k.a Analogman has a nice section on what he has or still does for Trey.

After seeing that June 2009 pic, maybe what I'm hearing differently at shows is the absence of the Bi-Comp, and the Ross Comp. more, I don't know. I just know that at the Gorge his guitar was 'slamming' the front end of that Boogie! But then again, Mike is turned up and it's been 5 years, so I'm just trying to help. I'm a huge Phish fan and think of Trey's tone as something only a Jedi Master can earn.
www.analogman.com
His mod's are the best in my opinion, no offense Robert! and I think if you are going to go for the Trey Tone, a Maxon OD-9/808/Silver is the way to start, blend that with an Analogman Bi-comp (he no longer uses the Ross) and that will get you started. I'm still trying to dial in my RMC III Wah to get the 'Moma Dance' sound, if anybody can help here, I'd appreciate it! He's the man..and now that's he clean and sober, I'll attempt to ask him at Festival 8. I hope this helps a bit!
 
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