Triads and 3 note voicings, it's a hexatonic world after all

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by Clifford-D, Apr 11, 2015.

  1. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    I'm writing with my small phone so sorry in advance.

    My understanding is a triad is R 3rd & 5th of a scale, and a
    three note voicing is any three intervals of a scale, for ease
    let's consider the C major scale.

    My understanding is the triad pairs used to make hexatonic scales
    involve R 3 5 of two similar triads, say the Dm and Em triads. That
    gives us D F A and EGB creating the hexatonic scale D E F G A B, no
    C note. Another common one is FAC and G B D = D F G A B C no E.

    In simple Cliffy thinking, Mick Goodrick & Tim Miller's book
    Creative Chordal Harmony takes the whole hexatonic idea to a new
    level imo. He has these basic simple "formula's" that provide in a nutshell,
    10 unique voicings all missing the C note for each tone in the scale creating some truly amazing voicings.


    Here is the first formula

    triad/triad, this means combine Dm & Em, first chord
    is Dm and the next is Em then repeat Dm Em Dm Em etc.
    That's true for all the formulas.

    D----E----F----G----A----B
    F----G----A----B----D----E
    A----B----D----E----F----G

    -------------------------------
    3----5----6-----8---10---12
    ------------------------7----9
    3----5----7-----9------------
    -----------5-----7-----8---10
    5----7-------------------------

    Now play that like you would a scale, melodically.

    the next formula of triad/7th no 5 or G & Fmaj7 (no 5th)
    This starts showing Goodrick's creativeness.

    D----E----F----G----A----B
    G----F----A----B----E----D
    B----A----E----D----F----G

    -------------------------------
    3----5----6-----8---10---12
    ------------------------9------
    5----3----7-----9---------12
    2----------7-----------8---10
    ------5----------10-----------

    One more of the 10 formulas that I like. sus4/sus4
    Dm sus & Bdim sus

    D----E----F----G----A----B
    G----F----B----A----D----E
    A----B----E----D----G----F

    --------------------------------
    3----5----6-----8---10---12
    ------------------------7----9
    5----3----9-----7-----------
    ------2----7-----5---10----8
    5------------------------------

    I hope someone jumps in so I have people to
    talk to about all this, I have questions.

    Also, play these chords over non bebop tunes like
    A minor blues, A minor vamp, Dm-G7 jazzy vamp.
    What I'm totally loving is changing the key to G and
    playing these chords over Little Wing. They are these
    beautiful etherial sounds that are very complex in the
    most beautiful ways.

    Can we talk about these ideas?
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2015
  2. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    I see many elements of his previous books in this Creative Chordal book.
    It's really bringing Goodricks ideas into focus in a very usable way. Little Wing has
    never sounded like this before lol.
     
  3. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    Goodrick doesn't make just music books, he derives
    much fun I'm sure from making his books musical
    puzzle books. He provides as little info as possible
    much like an easter egg hunt. If you want to get
    anything useful out of his books you have to investigate.
    This book gives you one bebop tune, Stella, to kickstart
    your journey. He also gives you the voice leading ideas
    in a few ways. Still it's very cryptic and I bet he gets a kick
    out of the exploding brains, me being one. I'm realizing this
    can be applied in all sorts of styles of music from country
    to metal to jazz and beyond. Radiohead-esque music would
    sound great, I just wrote a vamp.
     
  4. derekd

    derekd Supporting Member

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    I studied jazz with a guy in KC named, Jay Eudaly. Jay had studied with John Elliot, a well known jazz keyboardist, and the guy Pat Metheny studied and played with growing up.

    John had a series of lessons on what he referred to as bitonals, superimposing triads over each other to create various tonalities. I got the intro version of major and minor, basically diatonic stuff. When I've mentioned this term in the past, more knowledgable folk have poo-pooed the term, saying it is something different.

    There was two more sections of John's stuff, one over altered dominants, and a last section which seemed rather complex. Both of these were pretty thick, but created some really cool stuff. Reminded me of quartal music while staying in tertiary theory, if that makes any sense at all.

    I just got a taste, never went further. Garrison Fewell's book, Improvisation for Jazz: A Melodic Approach, gets at some of this. I really like thinking in triads, and like those wider intervals, so this sort of thing has always appealed to me, though I haven't gotten it under my fingers.

    I'd happily participate, as much as I'm able, in such a conversation.
     
  5. Neer

    Neer Member

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    Very interesting stuff to me, as well. I work a lot with triads, since I play lap steel and have to make some sacrifices.

    I get into as much study of bitonality as I can, listening to Milhaud and trying to explore things I've read from analysis of his work and also the various teachings of Charlie Banacos that I've found. Mostly, though, I just do my own explorations. A good source of material is also the harmony book by Ludmilla Ulehla.
     
  6. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    I wouldn't call Goodrick's GMO idea
    bitonality which uses two keys at the same
    time. Goodricks idea is 100% diatonic. I think
    it works more like triad pairs, but not just triads.

    I would think bitonality is the deeper subject.
    Goodricks idea is very simple.
     
  7. Neer

    Neer Member

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    I'm sorry, Cliff, I wasn't referring to the Goodrick's stuff you posted. I saw the B word and got all excited.

    Like I said, playing steel guitar makes me think of harmony in completely new ways.
     
  8. derekd

    derekd Supporting Member

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    I've got all that material from John Elliot on bitonality. Just have never explored it.

    Like I said, it is pretty thick. Some cool sounds from what I have heard. I never dove too deeply because I haven't done justice to the knowledge I already have, and wondered about practical application.
     
  9. cubistguitar

    cubistguitar Member

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    Really enjoying the Goodrick book too. I want to plow through it but every few minutes in I hear great stuff and start messing around. I like alternating pairs like do the II/III and then the V/IVno5th. Tons of beauty and staying off the one just adds so much color and motion. You play that root is just seems like it just stopped moving. Wonderful book, will be working out of it for years I'm sure.
     
  10. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    Glad you see the beauty in the concept.

    The concept was hard, heck, darn near
    impossible for me to apply to bebop with
    all the modulations. I couldn't shake how
    much I was in my head. But then I had the
    idea to play over diatonic R&R vamps and
    simpler progressions that don't modulate.
    That is when it all came together for me.

    I needed create my own path to understanding.
    Like I said, Goodrick loves to mess with our heads.

    Around seven/eight years ago I hired Julian Lage
    to do a clinic. When it was over, Julian and Steve
    were sitting around, students all gone, Julian
    started talking about Goodricks GMC concept
    and mentioned there was a book on the way.
    Since I've been working with the book I've noticed
    tons of examples of Julian using the ideas in performancr.
    Obviously Julian soaked the info up like a sponge.
    Anyway I have not been able to soak this stuff up without
    without greatly simplifying it. Now that I've
    done that I'm starting to become a sponge
     
  11. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    Hey, I added tab to my original examples
     
  12. tweedster

    tweedster Supporting Member

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    Thank you.

    I'm working on much simpler stuff - superimposing diatonic triad inversions over mixo, dorian, major, and natural minor chord vamps.
     
  13. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    This Goodrick idea is really just about on the same level
    as the triad stuff you're working on.

    The difference is triads are R 3 5 and a 3 note Goodrick
    chord are any combination of intervals, however with Goodrick's
    there are no roots. All the chords made are without the root.
    That leaves six notes, and we can make two 3 note chords.

    Once you get an understanding of how getting rid of the root
    and how you can make two 3 note chords you just might see
    that its no harder tha your use of triads.

    Here is an example of putting anything together

    cluster/cluster

    D.......B
    E.......G
    F and A

    -------------------------------
    -3----5----6----8---10---12
    -------7----9----5---------12
    -3---------------7----9-------
    -7----8----7---------------12
    ----------------------10------
    -
    that making and use of the chords
     

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