tube amp > dummy load> SS amp ? who playes throuhc such setup ?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by Grim, Jan 26, 2006.


  1. Grim

    Grim Member

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    Does anyone here actually uses such setup live/studio/home:

    tube amp (cranked nicely) >> dummy load >> line level taken out by di box >> fx (optionally) >> solid state amp >> guitar cab

    if you do (or you considered):
    1. what are benefits and downsides ?
    2. what actual piece of gear do you use ? what amp, what ss power amp etc ???
     
  2. Grim

    Grim Member

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    :jo sorry for typos ... it is really late here :D
     
  3. wgs1230

    wgs1230 Fully Intonatable Silver Supporting Member

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    Add a Variac to drop the AC volts to the tube head and you've essentially described EVH's setup on the early records. The trick is finding the right load box... and a steady supply of power tubes.
     
  4. jokerjkny

    jokerjkny Member

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    i do this with my bass rig, but same idea.

    Alessandro Basset Hound -> (Avalon U5 DI box + THD Hotplate) -> Stewart World 1.2 power amp -> Epifani UL310 cab

    the basset hound is only 60 watts, and doesnt have nearly enough power for the groups i work. so, i send an out into the Avalon U5, which is set to "speaker" mode. but it doesnt act as a speaker load, so, i run another out from the basset hound, and that goes into the THD Hotplate which is set to "load" and acts as a power soak. going back to the avalon, i send the signal coming from that into my power amp, and voila, BIG sound.
     
  5. LaXu

    LaXu Member

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    Pros:
    1. Tone doesn't get as compressed and lose as much high end as when using an attenuator at higher attenuation levels. Compared to straight into cab the tone will lose a little bit of high end and get a bit more compressed, but with a dynamic amp this certainly hasn't bothered me.
    2. Precise control over volume.
    3. You can place effects after the amp output.

    Cons:
    1. More gear to haul.
    2. Expensive, since you need an attenuator with a line-out and a separate poweramp.

    I've tried it with a simple Uraltone Line-out Box (suitable up to 25W) into my Yamaha DG80 1x12 combo (which I usually use just as a cab). In my experience it's the second best thing to Power Scaling. Certainly works better than using just an attenuator.
     
  6. Unburst

    Unburst Member

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    Eddie Van Halen used to for one.
     
  7. crsantin

    crsantin Guest

    Yes, I do. I use a 5150 head into a Weber Mass 100. I use the line out from the Weber into a Marshall 1 x12 30 watt solid state combo. I've got a Pod xt in the loop of the 5150 for effects only-some reverb, delay once in a while, eq, etc. I'm very happy with it, and I can get cranked 5150 sounds at very low volumes, for playing at 2 am and such. I don't use a 4x12 at all, it gathers dust now. I much prefer this setup to attenuating. The tone controls on the Weber work very well. I don't play metal, just classic rock and hard rock, and I get a very convincing early VH tone when I want one and a great Humans Being tone too. I'm thinking of replacing the xt with an xt live so I can make some changes with my feet, otherwise I like what I'm hearing with this rig.
     
  8. Shea

    Shea Member

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    I don't see why it can't be built into one amp. Like this:

    1. Preamp
    2. Phase inverter
    3. 2 x EL84 or 6V6 output section, or one 6DW7 (I think push-pull breakup sounds better than single-ended at high volumes)
    4. deluxe or 18-watt output transformer
    5. reactive dummy load
    6. filtering / eq, or maybe a knob to select from a few speaker emulation presets
    7. effects loop
    8. Master volume. Or maybe have 2 or 3 level controls that you can select with a footswitch (ignoring Randall Smith's BS patent claim on this idea)
    9. 200 - 300 watt, solid state output section.

    I've been thinking about this.

    Shea
     
  9. DodsonLP

    DodsonLP Member

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    Try a Gerlitz amp. The basic concept of this amp is that it is two very low powered tube amps in one. It has a tube pre-amp and powerstage for each one and then amplifies these by using a solid state amp. Therefore it is like having two tube amps mic'ed and run into a pa system all in one amp. Each amp is set up like a channel of a normal amp and comes with one channel voiced as a Marshall plexi and one voiced as a blackface Fender. It even has seperate spring reverbs and a footswitch that allows you to select the channels or blend the two for another tone option. It allows for some very good tones at any volume. There is a website for more information.
     
  10. amper

    amper Member

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    The trouble with doing this is it requires a complex setup. That said, it's exactly what I'm trying to acheive. The biggest problem is the only really good reason to use a three-stage setup is to put time-based effects after power tube distortion. In order to do this well and still have a usable clean sound, you'll need to have two separate preamps.

    What I decided to do is use two Mesa/Boogie combos, an F-50 for my cleans, and an F-30 for my dirt. My guitar goes into a few pedals, then into a Mesa/Boogie High Gain Amp Switcher. Two of the loops go, respectively to a combo, and the speaker out of each goes into a Groove Tubes Speaker Emulator II, then back into the Amp Switcher. The output of the Amp Switcher then goes into stereo effects, and out into a Mesa/Boogie Stereo 2:Fifty power amp. Out of the power amp into the speakers of the combo boxes.

    The other way I was going to do it is with two Voodoo Lab preamps and a Mesa/Boogie 20/20 as my second stage amp.

    As of the moment, I do not actually have the F-30 or Stereo 2:Fifty, so I only have one side of this equation working. For my final stage amp, I'm using a Crown XLS402 (or 602, I forget which it is).

    I've found that the GT SEII is much better for this type of application than the THD Hot Plate. The line out of the Hot Plate sounds terrible, whereas the GT's line outs have much better control. The THD unit, however, is better for simple attenuation.

    There's so much cabling involved, and so many amplification stages, that you may have a problem with noise. Keep your cables to a minimum length, use balanced and/or low impedance runs wherever possible, and make sure you pick good tubes.
     
  11. Geetarpicker

    Geetarpicker Member

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    I've tried it twice with a '68 100 Marshall plexi. Once using a Crown DC300, and then once with a Carver PM125. The trick is probably what load device to use. Both times something was missing in the tone compared to running straight. The feedback was never quite as controllable, and it never quite felt right...

    Over the years I've tried two hybrid systems that give me some of the benefits of a load box, power amp setup.

    1) I run my amp straight into a cab, possibly with an attenuator but still no power amp inline. Then I take the 2nd speaker jack and attenuate that down to line level, run into an effects processor, out to a power amp and a second speaker cab. Gives a killer reverb, chorus, and delay effects. Won't work for some effects though like tremolo as the straight amp gives you too much of a dry wash. The straight signal is 100% pure and untouched by the power amp, retaining all it's normal tone.

    2) Currently I run a two amp rig on an AB box. Marshall plexi 100 halfstack (or 1974x for smaller rooms) for dirty, and a '64 Deluxe (and possibly 2 Deluxes) for clean. The clean effects run to the Fender. The delays on the dirty rig are however processed differently. The 2nd speaker jack on the Marshall runs into a micro sized attenuator/EQ box that I made to bring the amp output all the way down to pedal level. I then send that signal to my delay pedal, then "reamp" that with the 2nd channel of the Fender. So my delays are processed "post amplifier" giving them a much more definable tone than the delay would ever sound plugged into the front of the Marshall. Since I already had the 2nd amp as part of the setup, I don't need an additional power amp to pull this off. Give me one of the benefits of a power amp rig, "post amp" delays. The EQ in my homemade "delay driver box" make the tone of the "reamped" delays quite closely match those of the dry Marshall, albiet with a slightly smaller tone (single 12") which works anyway.
     
  12. Grim

    Grim Member

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    thx for unswers so far !

    That is definitely a whole lot more complicated setup, and more to haul around :(
    still I came up with that idea, after running into issues with my mesa dual rectifier loop (parallel, when fixed to serial - hi gain chanell bleeding became an issue).

    Huge benefit for me is being able to use eq + fx after power distortion. F.e. you can keep basic tone and just fine tune with eq to room, or diffrent cab.
    I love my mesa tone, but want to have full flexibility as for fx and eq.
    And getting THE tone of monster cranked at virtually any level is a huge win in this situation as well.

    For me its like a last chance program for my mesa, if that doesnt work for me, it will have to go away.
     
  13. loverocker

    loverocker Member

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    I have this setup (at home). Now in a wet/dry setup like Geeterplayer said in number 1) above.

    For the same sort of thing but with a valve back end, and all in one box for easier gigging, look up Guytron (www.guytron).
     
  14. Tone_Terrific

    Tone_Terrific Member

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    This is the basic formula for multi-fx pre-amps, modelling amps, and floor processors and pedalbords. Are you sure you have to go through all the elabaorate setups and expense to get a satisfactory tone?

    Try the other possibilities into high-quality, well-chosen speakers and amps before you dismiss them entirely, IMO.
     
  15. LaXu

    LaXu Member

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    I think this is basically what the Guytron amps do, except they use another tube output section. The Ultimate Attenuator is apparently also a dummy load -> poweramp thing built inside the same box.

    The Gerlitz amp sounds interesting, I have to check it out.
     
  16. Guinness Lad

    Guinness Lad Silver Supporting Member

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    Yeah I do, it's called a Guytron FV100. 2 EL84''s which feed 4 EL34's. It works beautifully.:BEER
     
  17. Riscchip

    Riscchip Member

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    This is what I use for all of my playing. I run amp - hotplate - effects - Tech 21 Powerengine 60. I also run a heavily attenuated dry cabinet at home when I practice. Makes for a sweet tone at conversation volume with 50 & 100 watt amps.
     
  18. Amptone

    Amptone Member

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    Various studio guitarists using rack systems have done a 3-stage amp approach, using a dummyload (part of a Palmer PDI-03) and a final amp to drive the guitar speaker and/or a cab-sim filter.

    Other amps that do a variant of this:

    VOX Valvetronix http://www.amptone.com/voxvalvetronix.htm

    Songworks - 3350LT http://www.songworks.com/3350lt.html 12AX7-based tube power amp, dummy load, and solid-state 33-50 Watt amp in compact combo package.

    I'd rather hear this with a real power tube.
     
  19. lp144

    lp144 Supporting Member

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    Re-amping works great for very low volume gigs and at home practice - 1:00 AM don't wake the kids volume - and still has good tone.

    1960s Rickenbacker Electro E12 single 6v6 into a Palmer PDI-09 direct box to a Weber MiniMass set to load dump. The line out of the Palmer goes to a Stewart Audio PA-50B 50 watt stereo amp (100 watts bridged) that pushes a Celestion G12H 30.

    Add a Keeley Compressor/Katana up front and the guitar sings and sustains and feeds back...

    Have tried it live - it's a cumbersome system to hook up and if the gig volume is at club or bar levels - the amp straight into the cab sounds better.

    For cranked tone at low volumes though, re-amping works for me.

    lp144
     

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