Valve amp players need to listen to this conversation.

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by C-4, Apr 22, 2019.

  1. Daniel Travis

    Daniel Travis Member

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    I had already seen this episode of tone talk, just here to enjoy the butthurt and the rustled jimmies

    Also, metallica has sounded awful live ever since they started using axefx

    Many bands and musicians can make an AxeFX or Kemper unit work live - but especially for specific high gain sounds, theres a grainy, tinny high end thing going on that you just cannot seem to dial out.

    If you were a member of a large backing band for a musical, or perhaps a big Springsteen-esque E street band type situation, where theres plenty of places to hide in the mix, or a cover band who needs to cover convincing facsimiles of many many wildly different tones - these are the situations where a digital modeler is going to shine.

    In a high gain rock or metal world, however, digital modelers are always a massive compromise tonally.

    Yes, digital people, digital requires less maintenance. Yes, it is probably more convenient. But NO, it does not sound better.

    And NO, it does not feel like playing a tube amp.
     
  2. Surgeon

    Surgeon Member

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    I have nothing against digital, in fact, I’m amazed at the versatility of the technology. However, for me, playing guitar doesn’t involve sitting in front of a computer tweaking dozens of parameters for hours at a time to get something good or great. I have 5 great tube heads. I plug into them and play. When I first got them and was learning to dial them in, I didn’t spend more than a couple of minutes tweaking before I found the sound I wanted (yes, even my mesa). That’s where it is for me, that’s how I attain the perfect tones « for me » and then just enjoy playing.
     
  3. Blackmoreguitar

    Blackmoreguitar Silver Supporting Member

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  4. Surgeon

    Surgeon Member

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    I know, I read and watched this before. It's just not for me. 5 minutes to sound good (and be honest here: do you know anybody who owns this kinda setup, fiddles for 5 minutes and is done? Forever? I don't think that it's even worth buying these kits to just scratch the surface like this) or just plug into my amps and sound perfect? It's not for me, that's it. More power to you guys who are happy to do that 5 minutes of tweaking and think it sounds great (or do xx hours of tweaking and think it sounds amazing)… Repeating myself but: I'll stick with what works for me, I turn on the amp, plug my guitar an play with a big grin on my face. No need to reinvent the wheel, revamp my set-up. It just works wonderfully. In my case, there is no need for what the technology is offering, both context-wise (I don't play a vast array of genres that necessitate tones that my current set-up can't do, nor do I play/live in an environment where I can't use a bit of volume) and tone-wise (I love my tone).
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  5. MBT74

    MBT74 Member

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    So there are harmonic overtones that we can’t hear but enable us to hear things better? And only analogue amps create these unbearable overtones.

    And if the mixing desk is digital, doesn’t that mean that nobody is hearing any analogue signal out of the PA?

    But, what he’s comparing is actually microphone signals, not tube amp vs modeller. It’s not the old “amp in the room” issue because he’s talking about sound at the desk/PA so he’s comparing the sound of the amp mics and/or the signal from the Palmer cab sim to the sound feed from the Fractal. Maybe it isn’t amp models that are the issue. Maybe it’s actually mic modelling that needs improvement?

    What strikes me as odd though, considering his experience as a sound engineer, was that it didn’t seem like he tried to fix the problem with EQ at the desk. Look at the countless threads in this forum from tube amp players asking how to get their tube amps to cut through in a live mix. The answer given pretty much always is EQ. Not to crank the volume up another 3db. Maybe the modelled mics had slightly different EQ to the real ones. Maybe that was less apparent when they soundchecked the tube amp vs modeller in an empty room before the gig and all the little tweaks done on the fly during the gig were only done to the tube amp channels on the desk so by the end of soundcheck when they did the comparison again, the board settings for the Super Bass were no longer the same as they were before the gig when the initial comparison had been made.
     
  6. DRS

    DRS Member

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    Why the controversy?
    We all know deep in our hearts that tube amps will always sound better.

    Modelling guys are all the same, "my XYZ v3 sounds just like a Plexi, sounds just like a AC30, sounds just like Tan Dumble, etc etc etc "
    However, the XYZ v1 supposedly sounded just like these amps 7 years ago. And tomorrow's XYZ v4 will actually nail it this time.

    Imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery, but flattery is thin soup when you want a steak dinner.
     
  7. DeadLazy

    DeadLazy Member

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    I wouldn’t say the digital guys get under my skin but my patience has worn out.

    I’m suffering from a total digital fatigue. There’s this sort of assumption - by many - that technology and digital technology is always the answer. That’s fine, for all I know it is.

    But people with that mentality are insanely boring and hypocritical; especially when it comes to music.


    The most annoying thing I hear is from producers who act like tone has be the exact same all the time. Or oh my god, what if an amp goes down during a recording session? Why, we’d have to record our stupid ass pop song all over again. Time is money, people!

    If nothing else, the digital feels heartless and manufactured and a pale initiation of reality.

    I often feel like a lot of people are so wowed by the beautiful sky rendered in their game, it’s so amazing, they’ve totally forgotten to see how beautiful and incomprehensible the real sky is.

    I mean I’ve lurked in digital forums and the threads are painful:

    Did you get the latest patch? Download this that? Hey, that’s awesome WE ALL HAVE THE EXACT SAME PROFILE!

    Morning rant over .....
     
  8. DirtFarmer

    DirtFarmer Member

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    It doesn't matter what you use to make noise, make great music and people will love it. Or make ****** music and people will love it.

    These are just old cronies defending their last honor. Let them live out their remaining days knowing that tube amps are always king!
     
  9. DeadLazy

    DeadLazy Member

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    And this is a cop out argument:

    Hey man, music is what it is to you man.

    As they then proceed to emulate tube amps.....

    That’s weak.
     
  10. MBT74

    MBT74 Member

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    These statements are pretty much exactly what Gibson say each year when they release the newest Historic series Les Pauls. :D “Now an exact replica of a ‘59 Burst”
     
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  11. DirtFarmer

    DirtFarmer Member

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    Ok?!?

    My statement was about the video, not the argument between real vs fake. Not sure what you're trying to convey here.
     
  12. MBT74

    MBT74 Member

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    It’s probably easier not to bother arguing with someone “who has lost patience with all the digital modelling people”. Anyone with that level of identity politics with regards to any topic is unlikely to be swayed by any point you make.
     
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  13. ToneDeVille

    ToneDeVille Member

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    this reminds me of the day I listened to the first CD that I purchased...way back when. It was "Building the Perfect Beast" by Don Henley. I had over 2000 vinyl albums and just the one CD. And my first, and still, lasting impression was that is has no balls.
     
  14. DeadLazy

    DeadLazy Member

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    Anxious frustration.
     
  15. DeadLazy

    DeadLazy Member

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    You gotta make a point and I can be swayed. Most certainly.

    I’m usually good about not bothering and the breadth of my annoyance is derived from a total digital fatigue and amps bring a small facet of that.

    Although, I do not care about the other stuff.

    The world can not be described digitally.

    But he beauty is in the eye of the beholder statement/argument is elementary. It renders all points moot and negates any discussion.

    And “level of level of identity politics”
    Your assessment is poor.
     
  16. Rhythm Rocker

    Rhythm Rocker Member

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    I love this statement. You found what you like and are happy. Tube amps and analog pedals.

    Then you can just play and enjoy. :)
     
  17. MBT74

    MBT74 Member

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    Digital photography does an excellent job at capturing and reproducing a level of detail that film can’t do (or can’t do as easily or inexpensively). It describes the world very well in a digital format.
     
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  18. DeadLazy

    DeadLazy Member

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    But it’s not like standing in the sun, or looking at a real sky.

    I think here lies my fundamental: we sort of reverted to this as a reality of its own. It’s not.
    I know you’re not delusional but I absolutely am challenging our perceptions and just how we (me too. Nay! Me especially! I think that’s why I reject it so firmly) think technology is superior to reality.

    As to the point in pictures: they are still and represent a moment in time. Music is moving through time and dynamic.

    There are things we are aware of without being conscious of them. I think the fluctuating dynamics of tubes is one of those things.

    The digital algorithms don’t have the language to describe all of that.

    But when our lives are consumed by speakers and digital and phones and computers, we have started to confuse the digital with the physical. It’s not.
     
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  19. teemuk

    teemuk Member

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    Actually, Metallica - as we know it - hasn't existed since "...And Justice For All" album so your argument is invalid. ;-)
     
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  20. wickedcookie

    wickedcookie Member

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    His essential argument, in his own words:

    "I heard a fractal I thought sounded amazing and then later that night I was like, 'I can't hear it.'"

    The notion that this (or any) person is capable of rendering a valid and unequivocal judgement on the ENTIRE TECHNOLOGY of modelling because he heard ONE self-modelled emulation of ONE piece of equipment on ONE modeller ONE time literally defies actual logic.
     
    SecondFloorTones likes this.

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