Vintage 30´s...why...?

[Urkoman]

I use to hear people talkinf about the V30 as if they were the "holy grail" or something.
I never felt impressed by them, but bought an oversized Bogner 2x12" just to give them a try. In the beginning it sounded ok. Well, too much bass and mid-bass. Rythms weren´t very articulate, but solos were ok.
Cleans have too much mids, i only like them on medium gain settings...everiday i liked them less till now, that i almost can´t bare them
Am i deaf, doc?

About the replacements for the Bogner cab, from the ones i know i like G12H30´s, but i´m curious about classic leads too. I loved a rare celestions too called sidewinders (kind of electro voice but softer)
As i love that 80´s rock tone, i think about the G12 75T too, that was the standard on those 80´s marshall cabs if i´m not wrong, but i haven´t heard many good things about them.

What´s your oppinion?

Cheers

 

[John Phillips]

My opinion is that V30s are great speakers in the right application, but they aren't for everyone or all amps or cabs.

They do have very pronounced mids, and a complex tone that makes them sound slightly rough even when the amp is totally clean. Some people like this, some don't.

CL80s are IMO in roughly the same ballpark as G12H-30s - they have deeper bass than V30s, clearer midrange, and a brighter top-end without the upper-mid peak.

75s sound a bit flat and lifeless to me - they don't have much resonance in the bass, or character or complexity in the mids, and can sound a bit buzzy at the top end. I think they sound slightly scooped - almost the opposite of V30s, although they still sound slightly 'dirty' to me, whereas the H30s and CL80s sound cleaner.

80s Marshall cabs had either G12-65s (which is the one that sounds like a tighter, higher-power G12M-25 to me, not the 75), G12-80s which are the 'ancestor' of the CL80, or rarely G12M-70s (a bit dull IMO) or G12H-100s, which are a really big-sounding speaker but can be a little clinical... maybe because few amps can really drive a 4x12" with them in very hard - or 75s, which are the most common.


I really liked the Sidewinders BTW - I have no idea why Celestion stopped making them, they are among the best speakers ever made IMO. They have outstanding clarity and a really huge sound (and very high sensitivity) - and the 15" version is even better as a bass speaker, IMO the best ever.

 

[Urkoman]

Originally posted by John Phillips
[
I really liked the Sidewinders BTW - I have no idea why Celestion stopped making them, they are among the best speakers ever made IMO. They have outstanding clarity and a really huge sound (and very high sensitivity) - and the 15" version is even better as a bass speaker, IMO the best ever. [/B]

This is really funny, they´re very hard to find, but right after reading your answer, i´ve found a couple used...
Maybe i´ve found the replacement

 

[aleclee]

I'm not a huge fan of V30s but they definitely have their place.

Though I'm not particularly fond of their tone in a room, they sound very good when miked.

 

[dbeeman]

John,

Great synopsis on the sound of various Celestion models -
spot on!


Thanks

 

[Swarty]

From what I've been able to gather, the time-line for 65w, 70w, and 75w speakers is roughly as follows:

65w - '79 to '83
70w - '83 for maybe a year
75w - '84 to present

An interesting observation is that the 65w went away in '83, which was the year the Vintage 30 was introduced. If you compare the 2, they look identical except for the cone. The Vintage 30 appears to be a 65w w/ a 444 bass cone.

Not sure when the 100w and 80w speakers were used...but they may have been for the shortlived 2000 series which I believe had 6 6550s in both the lead and bass versions.

FWIW, I really like Vintage 30s. The low mid warmth adds a richness to my ear. May be too much fat for a tweed Deluxe, but will serve to thicken up anything leaner sounding.

 

[HeeHaw]

For what it's worth, I used a Vintage 30 loaded cab for about a year with my Marshall and though I love cutting mids; the Vintage 30's were a tad harsh and edgy to my ears. They took a long time to break in as well. I kept swtching back and forth with a greenback loaded cab and a GT12-75 loaded cab. The end result was I stuck with the greenbacks. They seem "easier on the ears" to me, and just all around mellow.

I will say that the GT12-75's got no love from me either, but my brother who likes bottom heavy metal, absolutely loved them. I'm pretty much a blues and rock player, so the G12M greenbacks fill my needs wonderfully. Celestion actually made another speaker that was similar to a greenback but didn't break up as much. I'm not sure, but I think it was a G12M or G12H-65? I played a cab loaded with them at Reinhardt amps and they sounded really nice to me. It's too bad Celestion doesn't manufacture them anymore, because people would probably like them.

-Rich

 

[John Phillips]

Originally posted by Swarty
An interesting observation is that the 65w went away in '83, which was the year the Vintage 30 was introduced. If you compare the 2, they look identical except for the cone. The Vintage 30 appears to be a 65w w/ a 444 bass cone.

No, not at all - the 65 has the smaller 35oz magnet, and the V30 the larger 50oz one. 65s are also vented; certainly newer V30s aren't, I'm not sure about the first ones - I can't remember, it's a while since I've seen one.

Not sure when the 100w and 80w speakers were used...

They were used in the model 1982 'heavy duty' cabs and some of the bass cabs. 80s were used at the same time as the 65s and 70s in the 'standard' model 1960 cabs, then when those changed to 75s, the 1982s went to 100s.

Originally posted by HeeHaw
Celestion actually made another speaker that was similar to a greenback but didn't break up as much. I'm not sure, but I think it was a G12M or G12H-65?

The G12-65 is the one that sounds like a tighter, high-powered G12M-25.

 

[Swarty]

Originally posted by John Phillips

No, not at all - the 65 has the smaller 35oz magnet, and the V30 the larger 50oz one. 65s are also vented; certainly newer V30s aren't, I'm not sure about the first ones - I can't remember, it's a while since I've seen one.
They were used in the model 1982 'heavy duty' cabs and some of the bass cabs. 80s were used at the same time as the 65s and 70s in the 'standard' model 1960 cabs, then when those changed to 75s, the 1982s went to 100s.

The early Vintage 30s are vented (as are the early 80w). FWIW, there is also a lighter duty bass 4x12 that came with a G12 65 w/ a bass cone (all G12 65s are not created equal). I think it is unlikely that 3 different speakers appeared in the 1960 cabs during the same time frame. My timeline comes from my observation of dozens (100s?) of cabs and combos over the years. I've not encountered a 70w before '83 and prior to that it was 65w (which were also in the late '70s 2x12 combos). The only thing I'm fuzzy on is the 80w which I would believe came in the 1982, but I question them being the 1960s.

 

[tonedaddy]

Here's some info on Vintage 30's and G12H's that I recently learned.

I had an email discussion with Phil Jamison of Matchless Amps a few weeks ago about their use of speakers over the years.

In particular, I asked him about why and when they changed their use of V30's in their 2x12 cabs and combos.

Here is his response verbatim:

"The current combos and ESD's are G12H30 and 25 watt Greenback.
I switched them in 2000. The original config up to 1998 was V30 and Greenback.
I changed them in 2000 because the V30 wasn't what it once was and they were darker than the G12H.

A G12H is only a V30 basket with a 25 watt cone. They are brighter and have more dymanic response. They are also more expensive but worth it."


I took this to mean that the V30 in 2000 was darker than it was previously, so it encouraged the move to the brighter G12H. I guess I could confirm that with him, but it's the only way it makes sense to me in the context.


That was the first I've heard of:

- V30's voicing changing over the years (brighter to darker or vice versa?)
- a G12H being a V30 basket with a 25 watt cone.

Anyone else ever come across this info or notice the change in V30 tone?

 

[John Phillips]

Originally posted by Swarty
The early Vintage 30s are vented (as are the early 80w). FWIW, there is also a lighter duty bass 4x12 that came with a G12 65 w/ a bass cone (all G12 65s are not created equal). I think it is unlikely that 3 different speakers appeared in the 1960 cabs during the same time frame. My timeline comes from my observation of dozens (100s?) of cabs and combos over the years. I've not encountered a 70w before '83 and prior to that it was 65w (which were also in the late '70s 2x12 combos). The only thing I'm fuzzy on is the 80w which I would believe came in the 1982, but I question them being the 1960s.

The 80s only came in the 1982 cabs and some bass cabs (I've seen them in 1937 2x12"s, for example), not in 1960s at any time. What I meant to say was "80s were used in the 1982s at the same time as the 65s and 70s were used in the 'standard' model 1960 cabs" - sorry, my bad English! - ie from the start of the JCM800 series or possibly slightly earlier, until 1984.

All the 80s have magnet vents, AFAIK - as does the Mesa MC90 which is a variation of it, closer than the Classic Lead is. I know about the Bass cone 65s too, but they are still not like the V30s since the magnet sizes are different, the 65 is an 'M' size and the V30 is an 'H'.

Thanks for confirming about the vent in the early V30s, I'd forgotten! I did remember that they sound different though. I had one in my Studio 15...

 

[Tomo]

Originally posted by John Phillips
My opinion is that V30s are great speakers in the right application, but they aren't for everyone or all amps or cabs.

They do have very pronounced mids, and a complex tone that makes them sound slightly rough even when the amp is totally clean. Some people like this, some don't.

CL80s are IMO in roughly the same ballpark as G12H-30s - they have deeper bass than V30s, clearer midrange, and a brighter top-end without the upper-mid peak.

75s sound a bit flat and lifeless to me - they don't have much resonance in the bass, or character or complexity in the mids, and can sound a bit buzzy at the top end. I think they sound slightly scooped - almost the opposite of V30s, although they still sound slightly 'dirty' to me, whereas the H30s and CL80s sound cleaner.

80s Marshall cabs had either G12-65s (which is the one that sounds like a tighter, higher-power G12M-25 to me, not the 75), G12-80s which are the 'ancestor' of the CL80, or rarely G12M-70s (a bit dull IMO) or G12H-100s, which are a really big-sounding speaker but can be a little clinical... maybe because few amps can really drive a 4x12" with them in very hard - or 75s, which are the most common.


I really liked the Sidewinders BTW - I have no idea why Celestion stopped making them, they are among the best speakers ever made IMO. They have outstanding clarity and a really huge sound (and very high sensitivity) - and the 15" version is even better as a bass speaker, IMO the best ever.

Hi John,

Great writing on speakers.

I have old G12H-100 and Sidewinders 150 watts
were my favorite too. I have a couple of sets.

I liked clean head room for my funk rhythm work.
Now I love my Eminence's Tonespotter. I just used
Bogner cab with Tonespotter. That was awesome!

Tomo

 

[Plan9FOS]

Did not see this mentioned, but in my experience V30s sound best rear loaded. The harshness supposedly has something to do with the rim, and it sounds better with it facing flush against the soundboard where some of that sound is absorbed. This was a big deal when VHT came out with there Fatbottom cab ... it was front loaded ... lots of discussion and opinions..... I haven't a clue, because ....

I LOVE the tone of V30s. If you have to turn your treble down somewhat, so what? I don't sit around strumming chords all night either, I play licks and picked chords, and I desire the mids of the V30. Those cut right through a band. IMO they handle distortion better than the G12H 30, unless you don't like your sound being out front. Different generations? Maybe I am getting old.

 

[Guinness Lad]

Personally I think V30's sound best as the "other" speaker. They seem to blend well with something else but I generally don't like them on their own, the upper midrange tends to get grating to my ears when used as the only speaker. I use a Guytron cab which uses a V30 and CL80 and it's a great combo. The CL80 doesn't have the sparkle the V30 does but it has more lower mids and is a bit quieter. Dr.Z like the V30 and the Anniversary, or at least he used to a few years ago.

 

[Red Planet]

I'm in the middle I guess. I like V30's but not soley. I like G12H30's, G12H30 Heeratige's, Mesa 90 watters, Greenbacks.......................

 

[sixstringslut]

Mesa 90's, thank you Red Planet. Great transparent/ colorless goodie. I wish I had a few more.

 

[decay-o-caster]

Hey - no religious arguments on the Forum, okay?

V30s - definitely a love-hate thing. I'm in the 'hate' camp, but there are just as many folks who love 'em. And from what I'm told, they're the pschitt (with an SM57) if you're recording. But I just don't like 'em - too harsh for me.

 

[Leonc]

I love V30s and I hate them. I love them with the right amp and cab...and I hate them with the wrong amp and cab. Here some examples where I love them:

- Mesa Rectifier 2x12 cab. Great for low and thumpage and plenty of top end too.

- Orange 2x12 cab. Current crop of Orange amps sound great through 'em! The V30's upper-mid thing seems to compliment the Oranges' lower-mid thing.

- Divided by 13 2x12. Loved one Cele Blue and one V30 in combination with my FTR 37!

- Matchless SC and DC30s - Love the V30 (and Matchless' fairy dust) in the SC30. I just can't imagine a better speaker for that amp. Or a Jorgenson. also love them in combination with a G12H or a Greenback in the DC30.

- 4 V30s in a Marshall 1960 cab can sound pretty freaking good with the right amp.

Generally I don't like them with a lot of amps that already have a lot of upper mid stuff going on. Too much of a "good" thing winds up sounding very harsh and hard on the ears.

 

[mountain blues]

Personally I think V30's sound best as the "other" speaker. They seem to blend well with something else but I generally don't like them on their own, the upper midrange tends to get grating to my ears when used as the only speaker.

My sentiments exactly. Apart from the common V30/G12H30 setup, the best pairing I've found for the V30 is the Weber Chicago.

 

[TheAmpNerd]

Here's some info on Vintage 30's and G12H's that I recently learned.

I had an email discussion with Phil Jamison of Matchless Amps a few weeks ago about their use of speakers over the years.

In particular, I asked him about why and when they changed their use of V30's in their 2x12 cabs and combos.

Here is his response verbatim:

"The current combos and ESD's are G12H30 and 25 watt Greenback.
I switched them in 2000. The original config up to 1998 was V30 and Greenback.
I changed them in 2000 because the V30 wasn't what it once was and they were darker than the G12H.

A G12H is only a V30 basket with a 25 watt cone. They are brighter and have more dymanic response. They are also more expensive but worth it."

That is what he says. But it still doesn't jive with
the speakers you see in the early amps. Prior to 2000.
The Greenback has to be a newly added thing. The magnets in
the early speakers are way too large to be greenbacks.

Look at them and see. The Greenbacks have small magnets
and the originals has that ring spacer thing around them.
To make them look not so puney or what?