W/D/W Question - Tech 21 Power Engine 60 vs Power Amp/PA Speaker Combo Setup

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by Stone Driver, Jan 25, 2012.

  1. Stone Driver

    Stone Driver Silver Supporting Member

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    Greetings to the all knowing forum-
    I am in the process of setting up my first W/D/W rig, and wanted to leverage the groups experience in helping to pick the right gear for my situation. My stereo wet signal will consist of Eventide ModFactor and TimeFactor pedals.

    I feel pretty squared away on how I am going to handle all the wiring and routing for the Dry & Wet mixes, however I am stuck on what would be the right move to amplify and project the Wet signals with my Dry mix.

    I am split between using a power amp and passive PA speakers, or two Tech 21 Power Engines. From reading the forum posts, the Power Amp/PA speaker setup sounds very popular and effective choice. However, the simplicity of the Tech 21 setup seems nice, plus I save a rack space on my rig (a nice to have, but I do have the space if need be). My questions for the group are:

    1) Does anyone have any experience with both setups, and have any thoughts to share on the pros and cons of each?

    2) Which setup would have better sound quality?

    3) If you prefer the Power Amp / PA speaker setup, what PA speakers would you recommend?

    4) Are there any worthwhile options that I am not considering?


    Thanks again for everyone input and help, feel free to PM me with any additional questions that you may have. Thanks again, cheers!


    Signal Path: G&L Legacy -> 2 x Mark L Custom S10 + A whole lot of pedals -> Two Rock Custom Reverb v3

    Stereo Signal: Effect send of TR Amp -> Mark L Custom S10 -> Stereo Pedals (L/R, 100% wet) -> Mark L Custom Stereo Line Mixer -> Yet to be determined power amp/speaker setup.
     
  2. Stone Driver

    Stone Driver Silver Supporting Member

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  3. ChorusCrackpot

    ChorusCrackpot Member

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    HeadyJanFan runs a nice w/d/w setup. He might be able to help you.
     
  4. Stone Driver

    Stone Driver Silver Supporting Member

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    Thanks man, I can't seem to find any of his posts though. I appreciate the advice though, cheers.
     
  5. peterdjp

    peterdjp Member

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    So you are going from the FX send of the TR to the wet FX but not returning to the TR?
     
  6. Stone Driver

    Stone Driver Silver Supporting Member

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    That is the gameplan, TR effect send will feed Eventide pedals w/ 100% WET output, which will then feed into the Stereo Line Mixer, and finally to a "yet to be determined" poweramp/speaker system. No return to the TR unless the amp requires it to function, at which point I will just use a Suhr ISO Line Out Box to get a line level output from the speaker output and not use the effect send at all.

    Either way, the modulated / delay signal will not go back to the TR, and instead go 100% wet in to a separate stereo amp system. Hope this helps, please let me know if some additional info would be beneficial, or if I am way off base. Cheers and thanks.
     
  7. ChorusCrackpot

    ChorusCrackpot Member

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    Ah sorry, I wrote his name wrong- it's actually "Heady Jam Fan", with the spaces.

    He runs a wet/dry/wet rig using PA speakers and Eventide Modfactor & Timefactor effects pedals, I think. He darkens the wet stereo signals to make them more ambient and sit back in the mix.
     
  8. peterdjp

    peterdjp Member

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    That's what I was thinking about. The Suhr ISO may be the way to go for true W/D/W with no return to the TR.
    I believe it sounds better taking the tap from the speaker output. If you are using the mixer to create a parallel loop and returning to the original amps power section it sounds good going from FX send.

    I think the sig chain has to go TR FX send or speaker output / Line mixer / Eventide FX / separate power amp/cab or back to TR FX return.
    If you have a cable plugged in the the TR FX send you need to come back to the return. You can use a Y cable out of the TR loop to send/return with nothing in the loop keeping the dry tone yet still sending a signal to the mixer. This is what I tried but I prefer the tone from the speaker out.

    I have been looking at the Mark L. line mixer myself. Looks great! Maybe it doesn't matter with that unit and you can take the feed from the fx loop.
    I have been using a suhr mini mix and recently tried a full W/D/W with no minimix, taking the signal from FX send to Eventide FX to power amp and it did not sound good.

    I grabbed a H&K redbox to take the signal from the speaker output and that sounds great although the suhr iso would probably be ideal for this application.

    I have also used the minimix to run a w/d/w with only two cabs.
    The signal goes from amp fx loop send to minimix parallel mixer then the send return of the minimix to the left side of an Eventide Eclipse and back to amp. Then send the 100% wet right side FX from the Eventide to a separate power amp/cab for stereo. In this setup you use the main amp and cab for most of your tone 50/50 wet dry in parallel in one cab which sounds great on it's own, but then add in the 100% wet right side FX second cab to fill it out for full stereo.

    I was thinking of getting the Mark L. Line mixer to run two amps stereo with parallel loops, 50% wet / dry in each cab. Unless you are running the wet/dry tone in parallel in the same cabs or a big rack w/ more than two FX processors I wouldn't think you even need the line mixer for W/D/W. It would allow you to run the two eventides in parallel and leave room to add more gear in the future though.

    Interested to see how your setup works out. The Mark L. rig looks great!
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2012
  9. splatt

    splatt david torn / splattercell Gold Supporting Member

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    from 30yrs of playing either W/D/W or W/D,
    i know what i prefer:
    i like for the W or W/W sounds to be amplified by tube amps,
    or, at very least,
    to be coming through guitar-oriented 2x12 (or, even 1 x12) guitar cabs.

    then, there's no need for me to further "warm" any of the effected signals further;
    i like that sound. warm, fat.

    in a pinch, i'd def go for the Tech21 power engines,
    or the ZT 1x12 amps.

    my W or W/W signal derives from the original guitar amp's speaker output,
    usually via a THD HotPlate or a Faustine Phantom.

    btw:
    if you're not gonna use the mixer (to actually mix something), somehow,
    i'd likely dispense with its use.
    but, i do use a mixer:
    a Rane SM82, modified to offer me 2 pre-fader fx-sends
    for six of the channels.
     
  10. Stone Driver

    Stone Driver Silver Supporting Member

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    Thank you PeterDJP and Splatt, wrote you both PMs for your help.

    Any other thoughts from the group regarding power amps / guitar amps / PA speakers to get "warm" but neutral sounding tones for my 100% Wet stereo chain?
     
  11. splatt

    splatt david torn / splattercell Gold Supporting Member

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    @ ccl117:
    i kinda feel that this conversation might serve others @ TGP well, so will continue here, rather than via PM's.

    so,
    to addend-to my previous post:

    when using the tube-combo amps, i prefer for my FX-signal to proceed directly
    to the power stage, bypassing the pre-amp;
    to that purpose, i usually use tube combo-amps that feature power-amp inputs on the back-panel.

    i've used PA systems, monitors, Carver & Pearce SS-power amps etc, Rivera, Bogner & Fryette power amps, Fender Twins & etc, guitar-oriented MOSFET power amps, etc etc etc.....
    and, i still prefer the potential thump, thwack, warmth & clarity of the tube-amps;
    the Fryette amps are my preference, but i do like the integrated portability of tube-combo amps, so.

    for me, the wattage is also key:
    i prefer >60w per-side (from tube amps, though >80w is better), and def >120w per-sidefrom the SS amps;
    this level of power, for the headroom & clarity.
    (my fx-signals sometimes require a frequency range beyond the typical guitar-signal, so.....)

    using the guitar-oriented cabs , behind me, in an "array" which includes the "dry" amp,
    obviates the need from me for any add'l EQ'ing and/or pre-amping,
    and seems to maintain the sound as a single, integrated thing that i feel i can play:
    iow, as one completely whole "soundfield".

    ymmv.
     
  12. Stone Driver

    Stone Driver Silver Supporting Member

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    Really great points Splatt, thank you again for sharing. Cheers
     
  13. dcj98gst

    dcj98gst Member

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    Piggy backing this thread. Hope the op does not mind. This is what I am thinking of trying:

    Dry set up - pedal board to Samamp vac 40 (currently have the vac23 but may switch) Love the natural tone of these samamps. Could not get the same with just pedals into a clean amp, hence the wet/dry attempt.

    Wet - Suhr line out from speaker jack into my old digitech 2101 Artist (This one has algorithms for a wet and dry signal mixing at each stage of processing. I have an old mesa fifty/fifty tube amp as well to power it. I still need to buy two cabinets.

    Question 1- I am thinking of using two (2) small 1x10 cabinets for the wets. Maybe vox lil night train 1x10 cabs. Would those be able to keep up with a 40 watt samamp for a wet signal? I may use a little bit of dry thru them because it seems the digitech has the capability w/o a separate mixer.

    Question 2 - Anything I am missing? Anybody used a digitech 2101 for wet path before that can give me advice.

    Thanks
     
  14. dcj98gst

    dcj98gst Member

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    Nobody uses the Digitech 2101 for W/D/W set ups?
     
  15. splatt

    splatt david torn / splattercell Gold Supporting Member

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    NB:

    i don't have a 2101.


    it sounds ok to me.
    you may want to re-program your 2101 for an all-wet signal path, but, who knows?
    maybe you'll enjoy having some dry signal in the W/W cabs.
    (i don't, but i know some that do.)

    however:
    make sure that your 10" speakers are capable of handling the power from the mesa 50/50 amp;
    the normal vox night train v110NT speaker cabs feature single celestion speakers rated 30w@16-ohms, so.....
    maybe heftier speakers might be in order, there.
     

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