Wayne Shorter's "Footprints"-changes?

Discussion in 'The Sound Hound Lounge' started by jimmyj, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. jimmyj

    jimmyj Member

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    I've been working on this tune and the changes at the end of the verse seems to be somewhat in dispute among internet jazz folks.

    The Real Book says Cm7, Fm7, D7 Db7, Cm7.
    That D7-Db7 section doesn't even seem close.

    I've seen a few suggestions on other forums but I was wondering what folks around here might think.

    Here's Wayne's original recording as opposed to when he recorded it with the Miles Quintet.

     
  2. Rob G

    Rob G Member

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    I've seen and heard it played with many variations.
    The version I have has Cm11, Fm11 and the end section as F#dim7 F7#11 E7#5#9 A7#5 then back to Cm11
     
  3. Baminated

    Baminated Member

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    the main "turnaround" part is , in first order & generally
    | F#ø B7alt | Eø A7 alt|

    (The F# is mi7b5 - but the F#º7 (dim7) as stated above would be considered a sub, not the primary)
    everything else are subs except for that retarded D7 to Db7 which is completely baseless !
     
  4. spamsponge

    spamsponge Member

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    I might be speaking from a point of ignorance here, but, this is something I've played with and never understood the theory behind. Sometimes it works really well... But, a couple of things come to mind. It has been years since I messed with this song as I simply lost interest.

    Play around with the b5 substitutions on the D7/Db7 chords.

    Another thing to try is playing the D7 as a full diminished chord then change the root to Db for the change.

    If you don't know, you can play a Dom7th chord with a 5th fret root and raise the root 1/2 step and get a full diminished. The best example I can think of where this works is in or near the turn around in "She Caught The Katy"

    My crappy tab:
    D7 D#Dim
    E|--5------X
    B|--7------7
    G|--5------5
    D|--7------7
    A|--5------6
    E|--X------X

    For some reason I don't understand, moving that shape around works for several different chords as a substitute.
     
  5. Lucidology

    Lucidology Member

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    Most folk, for convenience sake I suppose, just play it with the D7, Db9, turn around ..
    Plus the bass doesn't play a pedal tone throughout ...
    This simply makes it a minor blues played in three ... viola'

    Think maybe twice have I encountered folk who play it as originally written.
     
  6. Sam Sherry

    Sam Sherry Supporting Member

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    Around here it's commonly played with the turnaround as recorded. It's always wise to check first, of course . . . one of those tunes like "All Of You" where five seconds of discussion averts a train wreck.

    FWIW, I usually play (as a bassist) bars 5-8 as recorded too, centering around a C pedal.
     
  7. jimmyj

    jimmyj Member

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    Thanks one and all. Occasionally I run into these tunes where the Real Book seems to diverge considerably from what I'm hearing and the various alterations and subs that I might try don't remedy the situation.

    Some nice ideas here. I appreciate the input.

    BTW, I've seen alt chords referrences on forums but it isn't a shorthand notation that I've run into playing. What is the specific alteration indicated by "alt"?
     
  8. Ethn Hayabusa

    Ethn Hayabusa Member

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    Altered dominant chords have one or more of the following-b5, #5, b9, and or #9. It depends on the situation, but if they want a specific version of an altered dominant, they will ask for it (example-D7#5#9, or D7b5b9, etc.)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_chord
     
  9. jimmyj

    jimmyj Member

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    Yeah OK, that's what I thought. It's still a somewhat general term. I've always been under the impression that if it's written in a chart it's generally specified what the alteration would be. I had thought that maybe there was a specific alteration that was assumed by "alt". My mistake.

    thanks
     
  10. KRosser

    KRosser Member

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    I have a copy of a leadsheet to this in Wayne's own hand - he writes F#m7b5/F7#11/E7#9/A7b5 - so kinda close.
     
  11. KRosser

    KRosser Member

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    Never trust The Real Book ;). The Real Book also gets it wrong by writing it as 24 bars in '3' - Wayne has it as a straight up 12-bar blues in 6
     
  12. jimmyj

    jimmyj Member

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    Thanks Ken, I consider the RB a rough guide. :)
    I've always felt the song as being in 6.
    That stuff straight from Wayne is very cool. Now if you had a pair of Miles' shades..
     
  13. chopsley

    chopsley Silver Supporting Member

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    Interesting... I have a bio of Wayne (called Footprints, of course) with a reproduction of a lead sheet of the tune (which I can only assume is Wayne's), and the turnaround is F#min9 / B#5#9 / E7#9 / A#5#9#11 (the other chords are Cmin9 and Fmin13).

    Obviously a different lead sheet, though. It also has an intro/coda (in 4/4) I don't think I've ever heard before.
     
  14. KRosser

    KRosser Member

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    Oh yeah...I have that book too...I didn't realize it was in there, I'll have to dig it out and see if the penmanship lines up ;)

    He certainly could have scribbled more than one lead sheet over the years for different bands...all these variations do have a general harmonic idea in common, I think
     
  15. kimock

    kimock Member

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    This is not my field of expertise, so forgive me, but during Alphonso Johnson's time in my band I called Footprints just to see what changes he had been playing while he was doing the Shorter gig.
    He replied that it was never played the same way twice and insisted that he would only play the tune if I told him how I wanted it to go.

    So it's likely there's more than one version of that turnaround following that general idea that would be acceptable, the author apparently not being super specific himself how it was to be handled in his own band, at least during that period that Alphonso and Rodney were in the rhythm section.

    Ok, no dog in this hunt! Enjoy!
     
  16. russ6100

    russ6100 Member

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    Well whether it's B7#5#9 or F7#11 for the 2nd chord in the turnaround - no big deal - those chords sub for each other - B altered = F Lydian Dominant = C Melodic Minor....
     
  17. KRosser

    KRosser Member

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    Well, and when you hear him play it lately it's clear Footprints might as well be 'free jazz' to Shorter
     
  18. tkozal

    tkozal Supporting Member

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    Eric Kloss taught me (a bassist) the d/db changes, thats what he played
     
  19. chopsley

    chopsley Silver Supporting Member

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    Agreed, the two sets of changes are definitely very close, if not identical (as Ken points out too). I just thought it was interesting that Wayne had two (slightly) different lead sheets for the tune, though I guess composers often revise their works.

    And, as others have said, what was played on the bandstand probably varied from night to night.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2012
  20. jimmyj

    jimmyj Member

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    Listen or watch the versions of Footprints from the Miles Davis Quintet Live in Europe '67 box set. There are 2 versions on the CDs and one on the DVD. Other than Miles and Wayne playing the melody and harmony at the beginning and end, it's pretty close to free jazz already in '67.

    I love this box set, BTW. It's fun to watch them playing in the b&w footage. The playing is a mind blower.:omg
     

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