Wet/Dry revelation

Discussion in 'Effects, Pedals, Strings & Things' started by sampleinajar, Oct 9, 2006.

  1. sampleinajar

    sampleinajar Member

    Messages:
    1,218
    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2003
    Location:
    NJ
    So the wife is out of town, and I brought the rig home from rehearsal space figuring I would get some tinkering done. Last week I bought some 10" PA speakers that I figured I would incorporate into a free-standing wet/dry rig. Previously, I had miced the amp, sent it to a small mixer with a G-major in the effects loop, and then out to the PA. I wanted a stand-alone rig for when we were practicing, or I was on my own, so I figured what the heck.

    Set everything up tonight and was just not happy with the sound I could get in a relatively small room (basement). I was using my Univalve as a tester so as not to kill my ears. Everthing was very finicky with levels, and micing the cab in a small space made everything prone to feedback and weird infinite noise loops echoing through the PA speakers. I started digging through my old stuff and found my ADA microcab that I haven't used for years and noticed that it can take speaker level inputs, and has a speaker level pass-thru for the unaffected signal. Hmm. So, I took the speaker out from the Univalve into the microcab and hooked the pass-thru up to my 4x12. I took the line-out from the microcab into the G-major, and brought the stereo sends from the G-major into my Peavey 60/60 tube power amp. Wow is all I can say. This set-up sounds incredibly good. The microcab gives you speaker emulation on the line-out (which can be bypassed), but you you need this since you are taking the signal from the amp speaker out. It also has some limited tone controls (hi-cut and resonance) so you can tweak the sound of the effected signal. I played for about two hours because it sounded so good.

    This set-up overcomes my biggest problem with line-level outs from amps like the univalve and attenuators like the Weber Mass that I use with my Germino, namely, the line-level out sounds like poo to me. There is some additional distortion introduced that I can't stand, which is why I have always favored the miced cab approach. This new setup simplifies everything, and solves all of the problems. I am a happy camper!

    Just had to share,

    Steve
     
  2. WailinGuy

    WailinGuy Member

    Messages:
    1,266
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2003
    Location:
    Silver Spring
    Sounds like you made very good use of some extra time on your hands!!

    Perhaps it's possible to get away with effecting a non-speaker/mic-emulated line out signal if the wet speakers are guitar cabs and not PA speakers. But I think using PA speakers for the wet signal is the way to go. I'll bet you would have had results nearly equal to what you got by using even less expensive gear, such as an H&K Redbox (instead of the Microcab) and a decent 100 to 200 watt per channel solid state power amp (which could be part of a small powered mixer). As long as: a) the cabinet emulator puts out a signal reasonably close to what a mic would hear in front of your dry cabinet; and b) neither it nor the FX processor, mixer, or power amp are clipping that signal, you should be golden.
     
  3. sampleinajar

    sampleinajar Member

    Messages:
    1,218
    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2003
    Location:
    NJ
    Good point about the red box, and I like using the PA speakers as well. This was really cool to me because I have had that microcab for a long time and never really used it, nor did I appreciate what it could do. An added feature I realized last night was that the Peavey 60/60 poweramp has a lineout that could be fed to the main mixer to put the effects out front.

    I am liking this so far!

    Steve
     
  4. Big Bob

    Big Bob Guest

    I agree with you Jim. But could you elaborate on why you think PA speakers for the wet sound are the way to go? It seems to me that using guitar cabs would have the final tone shaping mojo for the wet signal. (My Mesa has a line out that is taken from the signal after the Output Transformer). Then just mic that for the PA (if possible). To me it seems that would remove any "Line Out Harshness".....

    Thanks!
    Bob
     
  5. sampleinajar

    sampleinajar Member

    Messages:
    1,218
    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2003
    Location:
    NJ
    If you are taking the signal from an amps line-out, then you would need to use guitar cabs or a cab simulator. My motive for using the microcab approach is that my Germino doesn't have a line-out, and I really didn't like the sound of the line-out on my attenuator (trying it in many combinations and permutations). Next best thing was the mic'd cab approach to a mixer, etc, but I wanted to avoid having to set-up the mic and all of the additional problems that introduced. The line-out on the microcab sounds great, and it has the pass-thru for the untouched speaker feed to go to the dry guitar cabinet. Now I could bypass the cab sim on the microcab and then use guitar cabs for my wet, but then I would be stuck micing the wet cabs or using a cab sim on the poweramp line out for the wet feed. It is basically just moving around the point at which you apply the filter-effect that is a guitar speaker or cabinet sim, but it all could work just fine. If the mesa line out is good, I say go for it.

    Steve
     
  6. gdomeier

    gdomeier Supporting Member

    Messages:
    4,300
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2002
    Location:
    MN
    I recently tried something similar with my rig. I took the speaker out to a weber minimass, took the mini mass line out into a crate powerblocks line in. Then the powerblock speaker out to my normal 2x12 guitar cab.

    I didn't sound very good. I didn't think there was a need for speaker sims, since I am using my normal guitar cab. I am not sure if I will go that next step or not.
     
  7. Dr Rico

    Dr Rico Member

    Messages:
    1,772
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Location:
    Dade County, FL
    The primary reason I see for going with the PA speakers instead of guitar cabs for the effects is that you get to "effect" the already EQ-ed signal generated by a mic-ed speaker or a cab simulator rather than applying EQ (guitar cab speaker roll-off) to the effected signal. Whichever is preferable is a matter of taste, though the former is more like adding effects to a track at the desk or in live sound when adding effects to the band mix.

    My solution for some time has been quite different, rarely discussed on these here pages, and very effective: The Groove Tubes SFX system. NOT the version they developed with Fender for acoustic instruments....one dedicated to the electric guitar. Mine uses the E1 encoder and G3 decoder cab and provides a stunning 300 degree stereo field that can be enjoyed at any position within that 300 degree cone without losing spatial information....unlike standard stereo rigs. This improves monitoring, too! Honestly sounds great on stage AND in the room...unlike other stereo solutions I've sought where the stereo image sometime confuses your bandmates (especially when employing heavily delayed stereo signals). I find that it lets me have more of the "effect" of the effects without losing the clarity of the dry signal...hard to explain exactly, so here are some links to look at. Expensive, though.

    http://namm.harmony-central.com/WNAMM01/Content/Groove_Tubes/HotPick/SFX.html

    http://www.groovetubes.com/assets/1650_SFX%20Op%20Manual%20-%208.5x11%20page.pdf

    http://www.groovetubes.com/assets/1650_SFX%20setup%20-%20loop.pdf

    http://www.groovetubes.com/product.cfm?Product_ID=1650

    http://www.groovetubes.com/product.cfm?Product_ID=1656

    The patented technology bascially uses the old "sum and difference signal mixing trick" to reconstruct the stereo image in a space away from the stereo sources. I run my amp to a mic-ed isolation cab (Brainard Micro Room) to a Symmetrix mic pre and take that out to the SFX E1, then to the stereo effects (Eventide H3000, Lexicon verb, Korg SDD1200, sometimes a little rig with a Boss SE-70) and then back to the E1 for a split to a Marshall 8008 stereo amp. The stereo outputs go to the SFX G3 decoder cab with one front-firing 12" speaker and two side-firing 12" speakers. These are guitar speakers and the cab sounds like a guitar cab. The front speaker sounds "Celeston" and the side speakers more "Jensen", if ya knows whats I mean. Makes for a richer sound image, at any rate.

    (Uh, personal finances dictate that I need to sell most of my equipment to pay for my marital dissolution costs, so my SFX rig and some of the associated outboard gear is for sale right here: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=169234&highlight=Dr+Rico
    Pardon the SPAM, but I thunk some of you sonic rangers might want to mull it over....)
     
  8. Frankenstrat2

    Frankenstrat2 Member

    Messages:
    5,062
    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2003
    Location:
    LonGisland
    I seem to recall Larry Carlton using a small JBL PA cab for the wet signal in his dumble rig. I cant remember what LeonC used to get a line level out when he had a wet/dry rig with his /13. It sounded good though.
     
  9. Leonc

    Leonc Wild Gear Hearder Gold Supporting Member

    Messages:
    17,236
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Location:
    Upstairs, L.A.
    Hey Barry.

    You're correct, LC's (that's Larry Carlton's, heheh) wet rig was (is?) essentially a small PA. He'd mic his dry output, run it through effects and then out of a PA with a couple JBL speakers. Makes sense as his dry rig's speaker output is what fed the wet signal. In that case, no need to "re-eq" it through more guaitar speaker cabs, so the JBLs made more sense.

    In my w/d rig, I used a line level signal from the amp's output via an attenuator. That fed the wet signal. Then, as that signal had never passed through a guitar cab (which does its own "eq-ing", as the Doc, has pointed out), I felt it was approrpriate to run the wet signal through guitar cabs. I thought it sounded incredible. Best sound I ever got live. But definitely more work and A LOT more to shlep around.
     
  10. danel59

    danel59 Member

    Messages:
    834
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Location:
    London Ontario
    I have been using a similar setup with my ODS30SLX and a Palmer PGA-04 but instead of power amp and pa speakers I sometimes send it direct or into a keyboard amp that also doubles for my acoustic amp with my piezo pickups. Then a line out from the keyboard amp to the board if needed. Works and sounds great and fairly portable as well. I have also used a powered pa speaker a Yorkvlle NX520 that worked even better than the keyboard amp. SImilar idea to the JBL Neon's that Larry Carlton uses

    Dan
     

Share This Page