Wet/Dry set-up, Phase Question ...

Discussion in 'Effects, Pedals, Strings & Things' started by Kenny Blue, Nov 9, 2019.

  1. Kenny Blue

    Kenny Blue Silver Supporting Member

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    I am playing around with creating a Wet/Dry, 2 Amp set-up.

    Specifically, after watching an episode of That Pedal Show, which talked about this subject and gave several examples of ways to do a Wet/Dry, 2 amp set-up, I am trying this one particular way.

    I do not currently have either an ABY box OR something like GigRig's Humdinger box (although I will probably get one soon). SO FOR NOW I am doing is this...

    The 2 amps that I am using are a Fender Showman head (into a 1x12 Cab), as the "Dry" amp, and Fender Pro Reverb as the "Wet" amp.

    I am going through my Drive and Boost pedals, then into my TC Electronics Stereo Chorus / Flanger. From there I go out of one of the Stereo Outputs (of the TC Chorus) to the Fender Showman (Dry) amp. Out of the other Stereo Output I am going to a Providence Chrono Delay and a Neunaber Immerse Reverb and then on to the Fender Pro Reverb.

    Sooo...
    On TPS Dan points out that something that is important in a set-up like this is dealing with Phase issues when plugging into 2 amps together. The GigRig Humdinger box (which splits the signal and also deals with Phase and Ground Loop issues), or a suitable ABY box will have a Phase Switch to correct an "Out Of Phase" situation.

    They also explained that when trying to determine if the sound you are hearing is In Phase or Out Of Phase, coming from a 2 amp set-up (and thus necessitating some way to switch the Phase of one of the amps), listening "in the room" can sometimes be a little tricky to actually be able to tell if it IS out of Phase or not, depending, for example, on where in the room you are listening from (although if one were to mike both amps and listen to the mix on monitors or headphones it would be much easier to hear it).

    But me not having one of this devices currently, I am just doing what I described above, without a box that has a Phase reversal switch on it.

    BUT... and this is my question... The Fender Pro Reverb is a 2 channel Fender "Reverb" amp. So it is my understanding that with Fender Reverb type 2 channel amps, the 2 channels are NOT in Phase with each other (so for example you cannot plug a Y cord into both channels at once, nor can you jumper the 2 channels together... which, btw, you CAN do with the Fender Showman's 2 channels because it does not have Reverb, and both of the Showman's channels ARE in Phase with each other).

    So... With the the Fender Pro Reverb being the "Wet" amp in this set up... Would it be true that if I, for example, plug my "Wet" signal into Channel 1 of the Pro Reverb and it seemed to sound Out Of Phase, could I just INSTEAD plug into Channel 2 of the Pro Reverb to correct that Out Of Phase issue (because the 2 channels of the Pro Reverb being out of Phase with each other... then it would seem that if one of the Pro Reverb's channels is Out Of Phase with the Showman, then the OTHER channel of the Pro Reverb should then be In Phase with the Showman).

    Is this true ?


    And btw... fortunately I don't have any Ground Loop issues with these two amps here at home, so I am good there. But at some point, in the not too distant further, I think I will buy a GigRig Humdinger to do this... but for now I want to see if I can just use what I have, here at home.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  2. abby_normal

    abby_normal Member

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    I'm a novice with wet/dry but it sounds like that would work to me.

    I just set up a wet/dry rig, too, and I watched the same TPS episode. I don't have a proper ABY switch yet either and my chains are guitar>Comp>Deco>Right out to dirt>'57 Deluxe>Left out to delays and reverb>DRRI. I think I am out of phase as the DRRI is harder to hear and needs to be turned up higher than normal to be heard. I'm basically having a hard time getting them to mesh together and figure it is probably a phase issue. I going to order one this week.
     
  3. Kenny Blue

    Kenny Blue Silver Supporting Member

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    So you are sending the "wet" signal to your DRRI... have you tried what I was referring to.. trying using the "other" channel, of the DRRI, to see if one channels sounds better than the other.

    The DRRI is a Fender "Reverb" combo, so I am guessing that the two channels are out of phase with each other. If you plug into one of them and it seems as though, from the tone and volume that you are hearing, that THAT channel may be out of phase with your "dry" amp, the '57 Deluxe... then possibly instead plugging into the other channel of the DRRI would be in phase with the '57 Deluxe, and sound better ?
     
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  4. rumbletone

    rumbletone Silver Supporting Member

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    Are you wanting to use this rig live? The challenge is that if you switch off a pedal that is inverting, you’d then need to swap again to the other channel.

    Have you considered running kill-dry on the ‘wet’ chain (which many consider true ‘wet/dry’)? That way the polarity issue becomes a virtual non-issue ...
     
  5. Kenny Blue

    Kenny Blue Silver Supporting Member

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    Well for right now I am not playing live... so this set up is just for at home. AND I do plan on purchasing a GigRig Humdinger before too long. But for now this seems to be working.

    I tried switching between channels on the "wet" amp, the Fender Pro Reverb. I did hear a difference and it seems to me that Ch 2 sounds a bit fuller than Ch 1. I think Ch 1 of the Pro Reverb is out of phase with the Showman. So I have the wet signal going into Ch 2 of the Pro Reverb.

    Regarding your comment about switching off a pedal, and doing so causing the two amps to then go, again, out of phase (?)... if that is what you are saying ?

    I guess this is something that I really do not understand. So are you saying that any, or every pedal in a signal chain affects the In phase or Out of phase status of two amps which are being used in a Wet/Dry set-up like this ? And if so... even if I have something like a Humdinger box, would this mean that switching off a pedal, which then puts the amps out of phase with each other, would mean that I would then need to flip the Phase Switch on the Humdinger to bring the amps back in phase ?

    Switching a switch is easier than removing the cable from one channel of the Pro Reverb and inserting it in the other channel... but either way it means that switching pedals on and off would keep making it necessary to then adjust the polarity. As I said... this is something that I don't have a total understanding of.

    And regarding your comment about the "kill dry" thing. The Neunaber Immerse does have a Kill Dry switch, so I tried that. And the Chrono Delay does not have one (unless it's inside... I have to check) so I assume that turning the Delay "Mix" pot all the way clockwise would be a totally "wet" signal.

    But when I tried doing the kill dry with the Reverb and the maxed wet with the Delay the delay and reverb sound coming from the Pro Reverb seemed way too much. So my inclination was to undo the kill dry switch on the reverb and adjust the mix level on the delay. I did then, of course, hear some of the dry signal mixed with the wet, through the Pro Reverb. But it sounds good... doesn't sound bad.

    Doing this specifically (using the kill dry switch on the Reverb and maxing the delay mix on the Delay pedal).... Should I then just turn the volume, on the wet amp (the Pro), down until the balance between the dry signal and the wet signal seems balanced, hearing it in the room ?
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  6. Kenny Blue

    Kenny Blue Silver Supporting Member

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    So I wanted to, for a moment, focus on the Subject of "Pedals that reverse Phase", in conjunction with the discussion of a Wet/Dry set-up.

    Besides this thread, I have been reading more about this and watching more videos about doing a Wet/Dry set-up. When it was mentioned, in this thread, that certain pedals can also reverse the polarity of the signal, I first realized that I had not known that before. And then also it brought up a number of other questions, regarding using pedals in front of a Wet/Dry amp set-up.

    I also did a bit of searching and found a somewhat lengthy thread, from some years back, here on TGP, talking about and listing pedals which DO reverse polarity of the signal. There seem to be MANY pedals, of all types, which do this.

    So... now, in thinking about doing a Wet/Dry set-up, instead of just dealing with a simple "phase" correction between the two amps being used (with a splitter like the GigRig Humdinger, which had a Phase switch), now it seems much more complicated.

    It seems that even if you are using a splitter with a phase switch to put the 2 amps into phase with each other.... as soon as you turn on a pedal (which does reverse polarity), then, if I am understanding this correctly, the 2 amps are now suddenly, again, out of phase. So then what ? How to you correct that ? Flip the Humdinger phase switch back the other way ? (of course, that is totally not practical, while turning pedals on and off, on the fly).

    And does this situation with a given pedal reversing polarity when turned on, audibly affect the tone, when just playing through a single amp ? (To me, actually THIS is an important question because THIS could be the reason, sometimes, that a given pedal suddenly sounds different than one is used to, or one cannot seem to find a good sound from a pedal, when previously it seemed to sound great).

    Or... does this only come into play when using more than one amp in this kind of situation ?

    Can anyone shed any light on this added detail (in regards to a Wet/Dry, 2 amp set-up) of how to deal with pedals that reverse signal polarity ?
     
  7. rumbletone

    rumbletone Silver Supporting Member

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    When I’ve done w/d/w, for the most part the pedals were in mono out front, and the only parallel signal that was mixed in with it were kill-dry delays/chorus and reverb, split from the dry signal after the preamp (or for some players after the power amp or by micing the dry speaker ...). Any change in polarity caused by engaging a pedal was in the mono front end before the split and therefore didn’t create inverted polarity between wet and dry. But by engaging polarity-inverting pedals in only the post-split wet signal, one is now inverted.

    A few options to address this:

    1. Once the signal is split, add FX using only multichannel processors that will ensure their output signals don’t inadvertently have inverted polarity.

    2. Either mod your inverting pedals not to invert (for example, by adding an inverting buffer) or add inline next to each a separate device that inverts the signal, and switch them together.

    3. Switch the FX with a programmable looper, and include in one of the programmable loops for the wet or dry channel a device that inverts polarity (like an inverting buffer/boost) and for each programmed preset have it on or off as needed to maintain the desired polarity.

    4. I’d be surprised if there aren’t DSPs available that will analyze the polarity correlation of the respective signals and automatically correct polarity or phase issues.

    Hopefully others will chime in with more thoughts.
     
    MkIIC+ likes this.

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