What app are guys like, Tim Pierce and Rick Beato using to isolate different parts in songs?

Motterpaul

Tone is in the Ears
Messages
12,458
They have access to the original tracks through their industry connections. No software can do what they do.
This is the right answer. It doesn't matter what DAW they use to listen to them. You can be pretty sure most analog master tapes (2-inch, for example) have been transferred to digital masters by now for "posterity" (and that's a good thing). However, once the original tracks are digitized, it is just a matter of time before more & more people have access to them. You can share them to anyone and there is no degradation. I imagine it won't be long before such masters are available online for a price.
 

Ed DeGenaro

Supporting Member
Messages
22,101
This is the right answer. It doesn't matter what DAW they use to listen to them. You can be pretty sure most analog master tapes (2-inch, for example) have been transferred to digital masters by now for "posterity" (and that's a good thing). However, once the original tracks are digitized, it is just a matter of time before more & more people have access to them. You can share them to anyone and there is no degradation. I imagine it won't be long before such masters are available online for a price.
A master is a 2 track...the question is about multi tracks.
Stunned by the amount of guys that think IP is just getting bandied about...
 

Motterpaul

Tone is in the Ears
Messages
12,458
A master is a 2 track...the question is about multi tracks.
Stunned by the amount of guys that think IP is just getting bandied about...
Ed, trust me. In the days of tape sessions we generally used the word master to refer to the 24-trk tape, the 2-trk would be called the "mix" tape. Most of the isolated tracks we are hearing these days are coming from what we would have called 24-track "master tapes."

I understand why it would be different today - but back then most songs actually never got "mastered" unless they were going to vinyl. If they were song demos you just used the final mix from the recording studio. "Mastering" is a completely different concept these days - considered a final step after mixing. In the past most people in bands did not even know what it meant to "master" - (the process of making a set of songs into a single collection with continuity of levels and frequency response so you could cut it to vinyl, or just to take a final mix and make it competitive, although we would often do that if we felt a demo needed to sound more radio ready.)
 
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Motterpaul

Tone is in the Ears
Messages
12,458
Stunned by the amount of guys that think IP is just getting bandied about...
If you are saying you are stunned that there are "Master 24-track tapes out there" that people are sharing with people like Rick Beato let me tell you, I worked in a studio in North Hollywood where the owner of our studio often bought used tapes (2-inch) he could sell to clients at a reduced rate. These tapes were almost always backups of original 24-track tapes kept as (another term from the old days: "safeties"). A safety was obviously made by running an exact copy of the master multitrack tape. For a lot of studios it was SOP to make a new safety once a week, because you really didn't want to have a $200,000 project solely existing on a single strand of plastic tape coated with oxide that could catch fire, get dropped or lost...

But once an album was pressed most of the safeties were just kind of put into a big room that almost any engineer could walk into and borrow one to play. There might be 20 of them for a single project. After awhile that stuff starts to pile up, and so you had two choices, you could erase them and use the tape, or (in many cases) some engineer wouldn't even bother with the "erase them" part, they went out the back door to be sold as "used stock."

I am reasonably sure L.A. is swimming in these master session safety copies - people have collected them, or just happen to know where to go to borrow them. I worked at a studio now called Boulevard Recorders on Hollywood Blvd (It was Producer's Workshop at the time). When it comes to safetys, no one really wanted them, and so the studio just stored them. I would estimate we had about 2000 of them, artists like Pink Floyd, Ringo, Steely Dan, Fleetwood Mac, etc. I know I was allowed to go in there and browse around, although I certainly didn't make a habit out of it, or do it alone.

At the smaller studio I personally have recorded over tapes of sessions by Bruce Springsteen and others (he was the only one I recall). I wasn't told where it came from or anything, but in no way was i stupid enough to think I was actually recording over the original master 24-trk tape.

Any now that all of these tapes have been transferred to digital media, the safeties are pretty much "worthless" - so it does not surprise me at all that there are a people out there with access to multitrack master tracks.
 
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JK1965

Member
Messages
4,013
I suspect they are using their ears and their brains? Sure some parts are so low in the mix they may be difficult to hear, but otherwise they transcribe them just like musicians were doing decades before the internet and online tabs or before rock or jazz transcriptions were readily available from publishers.

By the time I started playing guitar in the 80s there was the odd transcription available in a guitar magazine, but the vast majority of what we learned we did by ear from the recordings. We had no isolated tracks or slow-down technology or internet tab sites or mobile apps.
Precisely!
 

Motterpaul

Tone is in the Ears
Messages
12,458
I make it a rule not to argue with random people in the internet, but because you might have misunderstood what I wrote I'm going to clarify for you and Ed - I didn't say producers, artist, labels, etc on the original sessions drop boxed the files to him. On purpose.

Carry on with your lesson on piracy or whatever point you are trying to make.
Stox - that is very amazing info that I did not know (never been a guitar hero or dark web fan). But it does show that things like COPIES of original session tapes certainly do get out eventually - sort of like outtakes from old movies, etc., - they just show up. Hollywood is not exactly Fort Knox or known for impeccable accounting standards, it's a pretty casual place in a lot of ways. Also -as far as IP goes, there has never been a lot of love or respect between the people who own the mechanical rights to music & film, and the people who own the IP on those things - two completely different groups of people, often at cross purposes.

I am not a Guitar Hero historian. I can believe a lot of it came from there, but I can also believe there is more of it out there, and from other sources as well.
 

guitarjazz

Member
Messages
20,976
If you are saying you are stunned that there are "Master 24-track tapes out there" that people are sharing with people like Rick Beato let me tell you, I worked in a studio in North Hollywood where the owner of our studio often bought used tapes (2-inch) he could sell to clients at a reduced rate. These tapes were almost always backups of original 24-track tapes kept as (another term from the old days: "safeties"). A safety was obviously made by running an exact copy of the master multitrack tape. For a lot of studios it was SOP to make a new safety once a week, because you really didn't want to have a $200,000 project solely existing on a single strand of plastic tape coated with oxide that could catch fire, get dropped or lost...

But once an album was pressed most of the safeties were just kind of put into a big room that almost any engineer could walk into and borrow one to play. There might be 20 of them for a single project. After awhile that stuff starts to pile up, and so you had two choices, you could erase them and use the tape, or (in many cases) some engineer wouldn't even bother with the "erase them" part, they went out the back door to be sold as "used stock."

I am reasonably sure L.A. is swimming in these master session safety copies - people have collected them, or just happen to know where to go to borrow them. I worked at a studio now called Boulevard Recorders on Hollywood Blvd (It was Producer's Workshop at the time). When it comes to safetys, no one really wanted them, and so the studio just stored them. I would estimate we had about 2000 of them, artists like Pink Floyd, Ringo, Steely Dan, Fleetwood Mac, etc. I know I was allowed to go in there and browse around, although I certainly didn't make a habit out of it, or do it alone.

At the smaller studio I personally have recorded over tapes of sessions by Bruce Springsteen and others (he was the only one I recall). I wasn't told where it came from or anything, but in no way was i stupid enough to think I was actually recording over the original master 24-trk tape.

Any now that all of these tapes have been transferred to digital media, the safeties are pretty much "worthless" - so it does not surprise me at all that there are a people out there with access to multitrack master tracks.
I remember people throwing whole libraries of 24-track analog tape in the dumpsters. I also remember buying used reels. How much does a reel cost now?
 

Ed DeGenaro

Supporting Member
Messages
22,101
Stox - that is very amazing info that I did not know (never been a guitar hero or dark web fan). But it does show that things like COPIES of original session tapes certainly do get out eventually - sort of like outtakes from old movies, etc., - they just show up. Hollywood is not exactly Fort Knox or known for impeccable accounting standards, it's a pretty casual place in a lot of ways. Also -as far as IP goes, there has never been a lot of love or respect between the people who own the mechanical rights to music & film, and the people who own the IP on those things - two completely different groups of people, often at cross purposes.

I am not a Guitar Hero historian. I can believe a lot of it came from there, but I can also believe there is more of it out there, and from other sources as well.
Most of Guitar Hero was re-records whenever possible with the original guys.
How do I know...I was involved and a friend oversaw them all.

And how do alternate takes help?
The analysis is passed off as first hand.
 

Ed DeGenaro

Supporting Member
Messages
22,101
Ed, trust me. In the days of tape sessions we generally used the word master to refer to the 24-trk tape, the 2-trk would be called the "mix" tape. Most of the isolated tracks we are hearing these days are coming from what we would have called 24-track "master tapes."

I understand why it would be different today - but back then most songs actually never got "mastered" unless they were going to vinyl. If they were song demos you just used the final mix from the recording studio. "Mastering" is a completely different concept these days - considered a final step after mixing. In the past most people in bands did not even know what it meant to "master" - (the process of making a set of songs into a single collection with continuity of levels and frequency response so you could cut it to vinyl, or just to take a final mix and make it competitive, although we would often do that if we felt a demo needed to sound more radio ready.)
Fwiw we're about the same age and I spent the 80s in Hollywood being sign need to Atlantic then Atco... Everything we did was mastered, test pressed and shelved...lol
 

PB+J

Member
Messages
1,486
I've sometimes removed vocals from track for my daughter and her friends to play Karaoke. If you have a DAW you can easily remove, or mostly remove, the vocals, byt making two tracks, inverting the phase of one, and panning far left and right.

It's explained here

https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-can-remove-vocals-track-using-phase

It also tends to remove the bass, though you can minimize that. You don't get professional quality results, but it work for ten year old girls doing Karaoke in the basement
 

muzishun

Member
Messages
6,020
I've sometimes removed vocals from track for my daughter and her friends to play Karaoke. If you have a DAW you can easily remove, or mostly remove, the vocals, byt making two tracks, inverting the phase of one, and panning far left and right.

It's explained here

https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-can-remove-vocals-track-using-phase

It also tends to remove the bass, though you can minimize that. You don't get professional quality results, but it work for ten year old girls doing Karaoke in the basement
And?
 

Motterpaul

Tone is in the Ears
Messages
12,458
Fwiw we're about the same age and I spent the 80s in Hollywood being sign need to Atlantic then Atco... Everything we did was mastered, test pressed and shelved...lol
BACK IN THE 80'S I was told there were some very interesting tax laws regarding recordings made with the intention of selling a vinyl record for a profit in the end. It had something to do being able to write off the potential value of the final product as a business loss. A friend of mine ran a record company in TX where most of his recordings were financed by people looking for tax write-offs. When I moved back to L.A. in '83 I saw it a few times, bands getting signed and recording albums that just got shelved when they were done, and the phrase "writeoff" was bandied about. (this is just a recollection story - hard to find hard evidence on this kind of stuff)
 

Ed DeGenaro

Supporting Member
Messages
22,101
BACK IN THE 80'S I was told there were some very interesting tax laws regarding recordings made with the intention of selling a vinyl record for a profit in the end. It had something to do being able to write off the potential value of the final product as a business loss. A friend of mine ran a record company in TX where most of his recordings were financed by people looking for tax write-offs. When I moved back to L.A. in '83 I saw it a few times, bands getting signed and recording albums that just got shelved when they were done, and the phrase "writeoff" was bandied about. (this is just a recollection story - hard to find hard evidence on this kind of stuff)
It mosdef happened. But I believe it was more an after the fact thing.
I mean you didn't even consider recording for real unless the budget was 100K n Up.
I mean we burned through money faster than they could write the purchase orders... Thank God for publishing advances.
 




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