Discussion in 'Guitars in General' started by Jim Soloway, Feb 13, 2018.
Let the ship sink.
My take? I couldn't care less where a guitar is built; quality and consistent quality is what I want. I also agree that Gibson appear to have spread themselves too thin with a myriad of indifferent and unsellable models. If Yamaha, for example, can produce a non-custom shop guitar like the SA2200, built in Japan, with spec, playability and impeccable attention to the smallest detail, and at one third of the cost of its near-equivalent, the Gibson ES355, there is no reason why Gibson could not do the same. Better quality and cheaper, but still with that iconic name on the headstock? The only thing missing is 'Made in USA' and, frankly, given Gibson's patchy record of build quality, that label is nothing to brag about.
Les Paul’s and SG’s are old fart guitars.
Even the Explorer and V look dated compared to Schecter and Jackson.
And you are how old, 14? Given your ridiculous 'old fart' comment it wouldn't surprise me...
Gibson’s are boring.
Yes, especially when you can't afford them, eh Dan?
I probably have about 12 of them...
To fix their problem they don't need to figure out how to make and sell guitars.
They need to figure out how to sell Onkyo, Teac, Tascam, Cervin-Vega products.
Yes, they must be really boring if you own at least 12. How can you stand it?
I’ve been doing my part...
I bought 3 Gibson’s from CME in ‘17, including this one.
I run it into a Helix and Marshall TSL100 full stack, Mesa Triple Rectifier full stack stereo.
D27F89A8-ECC4-47B1-AC50-ED91B58BD1FF by Pedal Dan posted Feb 14, 2018 at 6:46 AM
It may be for Fender as well. Or maybe Fender is already taking care of this. Remember this thread was started with a question about Gibson moving production offshore. How many of those Strats are made in Mexico? Or with offshore parts? Or maybe Leo's design, intended to streamline manufacturing, is less costly to produce. Or maybe Strats, in general, are more affordable to the average consumer. An Americam Professional Strat is $1,450. What does a Gibson Les Paul Standard retail for?
And the Strat is more modular. The American Professional HSS Strat has the same body and neck as the SSS version. There's no additional cost in manufacturing to offer both models.
They tried to cover every possible combination of specs (2016), guess what the consumer wanted instead of asking (2015), assume demand, and look what happened... they wound up with dead overstock they had to blow out through CME at huge discounts.
Redundancy is, like most other things, defined in the context of supply and demand. It's not an issue if the product is selling. But concentrating on a leaner lineup, pricing it appropriately, and redefining quality standards and then focusing on making sure every one is good because you're building 25 different Lea Pauls instead of 140 might help.
The prices are already up there. We just don't feel like we're getting what we paid for. If we did, we wouldn't be complaining, and they wouldn't have to do an inventory blow-out sale.
So, not to belabour the point, but why on earth are you buying so many 'boring', 'old fart' guitars? Nothing better to do with your money? I do, however, like a nice 175. Many of the world's finest players have made great careers with these boring guitars.
I said Les Pauls and SG’s are boring to younger people.
No one wants to be Slash or Angus anymore.
Harley Davidson and Remington are experiencing similar problems getting a new clientele.
Here's a hint; the Les Paul and SG were around decades before AC/DC or Slash were. Eric Clapton was 18 (I think that qualifies as young), when he made the Les Paul the most visible and desirable guitar on the planet. You said nothing about 'younger people'. So, please explain why those particular models are boring, in your opinion; not enough skulls, pointy bits or dayglo colours?
Because the old farts have enough of them.
And apparently you do also. Kinda shoots your own argument in the foot, wouldn't you agree?
I haven’t argued anything.
Just stated my opinion.
What’s your take on why Gibson can’t move NOS guitars that CME sold for almost half price.
The 175 I bought is advertised at Dave’s for $4750.
I paid half that.
Gibson is a lot different than Gretsch, namely that they are quite huge in the guitar world. By that, I mean volume. They are selling more guitars than any other company besides Fender. The brand has always been made in the USA, it's part of the brand identity.
If they really did go belly up, some private equity firm would buy them. The debt would be shed, and hopefully they would be better managed. Gibson has been bought before, the last time buy the current ownership (former employees). That went fairly well for a while. A whole lot of companies struggled with debt following the recent long running recession. Some handled it better than others.
It's not that their current business model is terrible. They make money, it's just the debt. Sure, I would love to see tighter QC (although my 3 Gibsons were without significant issue, and the most recent of them, flawless so far as I can tell). Sure, I would love to see some different offerings that cater to my particular tastes. I would even love to see some experimentation and less building the perfect 10k relic that looks like this other old guitar. That said, I think they will probably declare bankruptcy, get bought on the cheap, and continue on doing mostly what they do now but without the debt. I guess that makes me happy, because I have always had a bit of a soft spot for Gibsons (they were my first really good guitar), and also because I would hate for the internet to not have their favorite whipping post to misunderstand and complain about based on other things they read on the internet.
Yep. But Fender is having some success. They started to figure it out a few years back, about the time they started doing a lot more social-media stuff featuring bands you never heard of (with a lot more women). Their leap into affordable-but-decent acoustics was part of it, as was the amped-up emphasis on "offsets" (including Mustang and Duo-Sonic as well as the Jag and Jazzmaster).
To the OP's point... the deal as I understand it is that the Gretsch family hired Fender (and Drum Workshop) to manufacture and distribute Gretsch instruments. I think the reason Fender has the upper-level Gretsch guitars made in Japan isn't about cost (Japanese workers get pay/benefits comparable to American workers, and the land and buildings aren't any cheaper), it's because Corona isn't set up to mass-produce archtops. It was quicker/easier/cheaper to hire Terada to build them vs tooling up from scratch in Corona.
There is a Gretsch Custom Shop in Corona, but I think that's partly because the Fender CS happened to have a master builder with archtop expertise (Stephen Stern) who was willing/able to lead it.