What is practicing in CAGED

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by TopDog, Jan 8, 2008.


  1. TopDog

    TopDog "jumping the valence" Silver Supporting Member

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    Practicing in CAGED.

    I've read about this in several posts. Can someone tell what it is?

    Thanks
     
  2. drfrankencopter

    drfrankencopter Member

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    I'd suggest you use the search function for more details...

    In a nutshell it's an approach to position playing, where each position (5 in total) is based off of one of the open chord shapes C, A, G, E, and D. Sometimes this is called CAGE, because the C and D shapes are basically the same.

    Cheers

    Kris
     
  3. dspblues

    dspblues Silver Supporting Member

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    They are talking about Fretboard Logic and their technique/approach to the fretboard.

    Goes something like this:

    [​IMG]

    Good for learning the various chord forms and I found it useful for learning the pentatonic scale in all of its positions.
     
  4. Mark Wein

    Mark Wein Member

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  5. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    I know I've posted this before and we are supposed to be
    creative with our posts, but it's a good explanation that I'm working at
    making better.

    So, here is a good way to exploit the CAGED Chord System....

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    The CAGED Chord System is a clever way to understand how chords
    relate to the fretboard.


    First of all, you don't need a zillion words to discribe the CAGED Chord System, keep it simple.

    For the most part, the 5 CAGED chord shapes are simply TWO intervalic shapes.

    Here are the 5 CAGED Shapes

    ......C.......A......G.......E.......D

    |---0----3----8----8-----12-|-|
    |---1----5----5----8-----13-|-|
    |---0----5----5----9-----12-|-|
    |---2----5----5----10----10-|-|
    |---3----3----7----10-------|-|
    |-------------8----8--------|-|

    Now, let's create practical 4 note structures from it.

    .....C.......A......G.....LE.......HE.........D... ..shapes..L =Low E, H = High E
    |------------------------8-----12-|-|
    |---1----5---------------8-----13-|-|
    |---0----5----5----9-----9-----12-|-|
    |---2----5----5----10---10-----10-|-|
    |---3----3----7----10-------------|-|
    |-------------8----8--------------|-|



    The above G shape, C shape, and High E shape all share the same intervalic structure of

    R
    5
    3
    R


    .......G............C.........hi E

    |-----------------8--|
    |----------1------8--|
    |---5------0------9--|
    |---5------2------10-|
    |---7------3---------|
    |---8----------------|
    = same chord, same note arrangement R,3,5,R

    One more observation, they all slant downward to the left. like this \



    The other chord structure. is the one that slants to the right. like this /

    ....lo E.........A.........D
    |----------------12-|
    |----------5-----13-|
    |---9------5-----12-|
    |---10-----5-----10-|
    |---10-----3--------|
    |---8---------------|
    = same chord, same note arrangement R,5,R,3

    3
    R
    5
    R


    So, only two chord structures.

    Notice that each of these "bass/Root strings" generate,from their "lowest note position", two chords.
    One that slants this way \ ,, and one that slants this way /

    ...................R.............................3

    .......................5....................R

    ...........................3..........5

    .................................R

    In this system, we have the R in the bass, and that bass note is on the 6th, 5th, and 4th strings, or the lowest note in the chord.

    |---------------------8---12-|
    |------------1--5-----8---13-|
    |---5--9-----0--5-----9---12-|
    |---5--10----2--5-----10--10-|
    |---7--10----3--3------------|
    |---8--8---------------------|

    Once you realize these fundamental "inner structures" in the CAGED Chord System you can;

    1. Change the fundamental to "other" chord structures,iow, make other types of chords. very simply.

    2. Create an appropriate scale for your newly formed chord. scales come
    from the chord and its function, not the other way around.

    3. Have a system that requires minimal "thinking". Very important when playing.

    Anyway, I hope I've explained this clearly to you. And I hope you see how cool it is.

    For simplicities sake.





    [​IMG]
     
  6. Mark Wein

    Mark Wein Member

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  7. TopDog

    TopDog "jumping the valence" Silver Supporting Member

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    Thanks guys I will look into this. Seems pretty mathematical ( Fretboard logic!).

    Years ago when I studied with Howard Morgan I memorized the notes and fingering for all major/minor traids all over the neck on each group of 3 strings. It was the one of the best things I ever learned. Tomo suggests a simliar study. So I don't think at this point of my musical career I'll be spending much time with the CAGED system as I already have a thorough knowledge of the fretbord.
    But I really appreciate the replies!
     
  8. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    Hi Mark

    I watched your tutorial on the CAGED System

    I thought it was very good. Clear, well paced.

    I'd like to share some comments, just
    because there are people like you out there teaching and
    using the same CAGED device.

    So this may sound a little like "what I would have done"
    In fact, it is. But I feel this is what we do on forums in
    order to advance ourselfs. So I'm well intentioned.

    First off, I feel it's important to let the student know/understand
    that the five campfire chords create a web of C chords up and
    down the neck as soon as they are brought up in discussion. If
    they are ready for the CAGED chords, they can handle it.
    It would be the second example I give after "here are the five open chord shapes"
    And I would point out, make a big point that this Web of chords
    on the neck spell the word CAGED.

    next, "here they are played in five locations on the fretboard".

    next, I would discuss how there are no gaps in this "web of C chords".

    I would discuss how "the hi side of the C shape is the low side
    of the A shape", hi side of A is low side of G etc. Very important
    for the newb to know this.

    And I would be talking about the practical chord shapes we use.
    .....C.......A......G.....LE.......HE.........D... ..shapes..L =Low E, H = High E
    |------------------------8-----12-|-|
    |---1----5---------------8-----13-|-|
    |---0----5----5----9-----9-----12-|-|
    |---2----5----5----10---10-----10-|-|
    |---3----3----7----10-------------|-|
    |-------------8----8--------------|-|


    I would discuss 'this much' of the CAGED Chords and be very clear
    before the next step.

    End of lesson.

    Next lesson I might bring up how scales and intervals work.
    (read my post earlier in this thread for my rap on this please)
    If you read that, then I don't have to write it again.

    I would most likely bring up all these topics regarding the
    static C chord Before I start talking about sliding up to create a D chord.

    That has become a point of confusion, mixing the "making a D chord"
    with "this is the C chord as it lays across the neck".
    Two different subjects.
    One very mechanical, the other harmony based.
    Two subjects.

    When at last I talk about making D chords or whatever, I present that
    discussion with a discussion about the C major scale.
    Up and down one string, like Mick Goodrick suggests.

    Because going from C to D is a harmony based activity,, This could branch out into
    "How do you spell chords". and other topics.

    If those questions pop up in my fundamental discussion of the CAGED Chords then
    I redirect.
    Because they are two different subjects.

    Learning how the CAGED chords work on the fretboard is purely mechanical
    .
    It has nothing to do with making music.
    It has everything to do with shrinking and/or demystifying the fretboard
    in a static/frozen way. It demystifies so you can get into the music.
    Because music should be what occupies your thoughts when playing.

    But these are two different things.

    End of lesson. Uh, $$$ pleeze.
    How easy they forget.

    peace.



    :)
     
  9. Mark Wein

    Mark Wein Member

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    Thanks for the input! I have just been doing these lessons in this format for a few months now...its very different than having the student in front of you...


    The campfire chords and "web of "C" chords thing I would figure would be addressed in this part of the lesson (Which is also discussed in the video portion):

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Much of the other material (Building scales and chords) are covered in subsequent lessons...I've been trying to do one easily digestible lesson per week....here is the archived series (not including the minors scales which are only on the blog..)

    http://premierguitarlessons.com/ind...ent&task=category&sectionid=4&id=13&Itemid=28



    I appreciate the input...it really makes me look back and see if I am being clear enough with the lessons. I do use all of this stuff with my private students now that I have worked it up and so I have caught much of what I felt were "mistakes" in the writing but there is always room for improvement!
     
  10. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    Well it's nice to see such well layed out thoughts.

    And I like your passion on the subject of teaching.

    Keep up the good work.

    Sounds like you and me, we're in the trenches :)
     
  11. Mark Wein

    Mark Wein Member

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    Thanks!

    I do love what i do!
     
  12. Tomo

    Tomo Member

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    It's good stuff that you can learn. Make sure you learn "intervals" ..degrees... then apply this to chord changes. Don't follow too much" shapes. So you need to figure out how to learn this as one of tools ...with taste.


    Tomo
     
  13. Elektrik_SIxx

    Elektrik_SIxx Member

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    Tomo, can you explain what you mean by applying intervals to chord changes? Cause right now, as I'm typing, I'm practicing II-V-I-VI7 changes from out of a single scale shape (the G and E ones from the CAGED) a la Jimmy Bruno's No Nonsense Jazz Guitar video.

    Practicing chord changes from an interval perspective seems like new concept to me. Is this like a Joe Diorio thing?
     
  14. Tomo

    Tomo Member

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    If you do that changes on 123 set string... say key=G

    Can you sing G E-(E) A-(A) D ? Do Mi So?

    1) G(Eform)E(Dform)A(Eform)D(Aform).. then next...

    Each note you should be able to sing and can tell each degrees...
    First chord (bottom to top)M3 5 Rt (G), 5 Rt M3(E) .....

    hope this will help you a bit. sorry ... I can't comment other people's work.


    Tomo
     
  15. KRosser

    KRosser Member

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    CAGED is just one of several systems for learning where the notes are on the neck and how to put them together in harmonic relationships. As far as those systems go, it's as good as any.

    Once you learn that, you can drop it. Whichever train you take to get downtown, you don't need to stand around on the platform anymore once you're there.
     
  16. Mark Wein

    Mark Wein Member

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    I really like that analogy....I'm gonna have to steal it...:D
     
  17. KRosser

    KRosser Member

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    Steal away.
     
  18. Tom Gross

    Tom Gross Supporting Member

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    I'm with Tomo - it's a good tool. One thing it's very good for is learning to see the major scale all up and down the neck, and play it at will.
    THEN....
    it might be suggested that one set aside the system, and use the skill it gave you to, say, learn the neck well, or see the intervals, or see how something interesting you are playing can be done all along the neck.

    As far as learning/teaching with it, I always kept it simple -
    - learn the five shapes
    - ID all of the degrees
    - connect two adjascent shapes, play over some comp in the area of the two shapes, moving back and forth. Make it not sound like a scale.
    - over a comp, alternate between 1)playing two adjacent shapes and 2) playing all on one string.

    That last one is to make the connection between the shapes & the intervals & the sounds.
     
  19. smorgdonkey

    smorgdonkey Member

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    I don't know...it seems like some people are missing that it also helps to link all of the scales for those chords together as well so that one can play scales all over the neck and to keep in mind that wherever one starts (for example E shape in the open position) the chords stay in the same order (when referring to shape) so E-D-C-A-G-E etc.
    I found the chord shapes extremely helpful in remembering the scale patterns and how they all link together was probably the best part of it all for me. I bought the Fretboard Logic books in the early 90s.
     
  20. KRosser

    KRosser Member

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    "Might be suggested?"

    I said exactly that right above!
     

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